42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

Forums: Politics, Snowden, Asylum, Nsa, Snowdon
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revelette2
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 07:48 am
@ehBeth,
Even if they would do something so disrespectful and cause untold diplomatic headaches for themselves, they wouldn't use the plane the President rides on.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 08:03 am
@revelette2,
Apparently Americans think it is something leaders of other countries would do - and there is no evidence that American governments and leaders are smarter than other world leaders.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 08:06 am
I think anyone who does not like America...can go on not liking America.

I think anyone who loathes America...can go on loathing America.

For the people who are concerned about the damage America is doing to America's reputation...

...give it a rest.

We can do quite nicely without you...or your "concern."

In the meantime (trying to get this back on topic)...I see no reason whatsoever to consider Snowden to be a dummy. He may, in fact, be intelligent.

I do think, even if it were eventually determined that he is a dummy...he deserves a fair trial on the charges that have been brought against him.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 08:20 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
We can do quite nicely without you...or your "concern."
No doubt: especially you, Frank, show this continually.

You don't mind, however, I hope at least, that some are concerned when laws in their country/countries are broken?

Frank Apisa wrote:

In the meantime (trying to get this back on topic)...I
And that's something, we only know due to Snowden's documents. Which is at least tangentially the topic here.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 08:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
We can do quite nicely without you...or your "concern."
No doubt: especially you, Frank, show this continually.


Thank you, Walter.

Quote:

You don't mind, however, I hope at least, that some are concerned when laws in their country/countries are broken?


Not at all...although I would love it if they stopped just crabbing about it...and did something about it. If you think the government of the United States broke your laws...DO WHATEVER YOU CAN DO.

That has nothing whatever to do with whether or not Edward Snowden is a dummy (I think he is not)...or whether or not Edward Snowden violated significant laws of the US and should be tried on the charges that he did...so the question can be resolved.

Right?
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 08:29 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
That has nothing whatever to do with whether or not Edward Snowden is a dummy (I think he is not)...or whether or not Edward Snowden violated significant laws of the US and should be tried on the charges that he did...so the question can be resolved.

Right?
No, in my opinion. And in the opinion of quite a few more.
But you seem not to wish to take the blinkers off - at least, that's how I see it, especially after having read the latest of his documents Germany related.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 08:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Snowden's German lawyer gave notice to the parliamentary committee this afternoon that Snowden won't talk with German lawmakers in Moscow.
He will, however, answer written questions.

(The date for his testimony was scheduled on July 3 - though it wasn't clear, if in Berlin or Moscow. Since the government objected him entering Germany, only Moscow was left.)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 09:10 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
That has nothing whatever to do with whether or not Edward Snowden is a dummy (I think he is not)...or whether or not Edward Snowden violated significant laws of the US and should be tried on the charges that he did...so the question can be resolved.

Right?
No, in my opinion. And in the opinion of quite a few more.


You think IT DOES HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THAT???

You have got to be kidding me...or you did not read what I wrote.


Quote:
But you seem not to wish to take the blinkers off - at least, that's how I see it, especially after having read the latest of his documents Germany related.


I have no idea of what this is supposed to mean...but if there is anyone with blinders on in this discussion, Walter...it is you.

Snowden has been charged with serious crimes.

He should be tried.

If you are correct that there are extenuating circumstances...his defense should bring them to the attention of the jury.

He deserves a fair trial.

You do not want to see him get a fair trial.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 09:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Snowden's German lawyer gave notice to the parliamentary committee this afternoon that Snowden won't talk with German lawmakers in Moscow.
He will, however, answer written questions.

(The date for his testimony was scheduled on July 3 - though it wasn't clear, if in Berlin or Moscow. Since the government objected him entering Germany, only Moscow was left.)


Sounds as thought the German lawmakers are willing to jump through hoops...and that Snowden is willing to provide those hoops.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 10:11 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Sounds as thought the German lawmakers are willing to jump through hoops...
Well, we have a democratically elected parliament and live in a parliamentary democracy.
A parliamentary committee of enquiry has certain rights and duties (according to article 44 of our constitution, regulated in the parliamentary committee of enquiry law [PUAG]).

Frank Apisa wrote:
... and that Snowden is willing to provide those hoops.
I don't have more information as is said to have been written by his German lawyer.
revelette2
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 10:30 am
@ehBeth,
I don't know, I figure they must have had some reason to think he might be on that plane. All I know is that I don't think Air Force One is going to be used to cart fugitives about the world.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 10:48 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Sounds as thought the German lawmakers are willing to jump through hoops...
Well, we have a democratically elected parliament and live in a parliamentary democracy.
A parliamentary committee of enquiry has certain rights and duties (according to article 44 of our constitution, regulated in the parliamentary committee of enquiry law [PUAG]).

Frank Apisa wrote:
... and that Snowden is willing to provide those hoops.
I don't have more information as is said to have been written by his German lawyer.


Not trying to be overly insulting, Walter, but he does seem to be calling the tune.

The German government seems to be dancing to it.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 11:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Not trying to be overly insulting, Walter, but he does seem to be calling the tune.

The German government seems to be dancing to it.
Actually, the German government is dancing to the US-tune: our Federal Constitutional Court might/will decide, why they oppose the invitation of the committee.
I don't know how it works in the USA, but here, this committee has constitutional rights... and the government has to follow their 'orders':
Quote:
Article 44
[Committees of inquiry]

(1) The Bundestag shall have the right, and on the motion of one quarter of its Members the duty, to establish a committee of inquiry, which shall take the requisite evidence at public hearings. The public may be excluded.

(2) The rules of criminal procedure shall apply mutatis mutandis to the taking of evidence. The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall not be affected.

(3) Courts and administrative authorities shall be required to provide legal and administrative assistance.

(4) The decisions of committees of inquiry shall not be subject to judicial review. The courts shall be free to evaluate and rule upon the facts that were the subject of the investigation.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 12:56 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Not trying to be overly insulting, Walter, but he does seem to be calling the tune.

The German government seems to be dancing to it.
Actually, the German government is dancing to the US-tune: our Federal Constitutional Court might/will decide, why they oppose the invitation of the committee.
I don't know how it works in the USA, but here, this committee has constitutional rights... and the government has to follow their 'orders':
Quote:
Article 44
[Committees of inquiry]

(1) The Bundestag shall have the right, and on the motion of one quarter of its Members the duty, to establish a committee of inquiry, which shall take the requisite evidence at public hearings. The public may be excluded.

(2) The rules of criminal procedure shall apply mutatis mutandis to the taking of evidence. The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall not be affected.

(3) Courts and administrative authorities shall be required to provide legal and administrative assistance.

(4) The decisions of committees of inquiry shall not be subject to judicial review. The courts shall be free to evaluate and rule upon the facts that were the subject of the investigation.



Okay.

Good luck with that.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 01:49 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Good luck with that.
Thank you! We only have our constitution since 1949. But we really are quite lucky with it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 01:57 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Not trying to be overly insulting, Walter, but he does seem to be calling the tune.

The German government seems to be dancing to it.
Since it's now online in English and perhaps better to understand than my broken language
Quote:
[...]
Opposition lawmakers have demanded that Snowden be allowed to come to Berlin and testify, but the German government has said doing so would hurt relations with the United States. ... ... ...

Parliamentarians from the two main parties in Merkel's ruling coalition, the Christian Democrats (CDU) and Social Democrats (SPD), had wanted to an "informal discussion" with Snowden in Moscow in preparation for a formal hearing.

The United States wishes to try Snowden on espionage charges, and has issued an international warrant for his arrest.
[...]
Sources
RABEL222
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 02:04 pm
@revelette2,
It just dawned on me what the difference between Snowdon and an unnamed source is. Snowdon had the balls to produce his government secrets in his own name but unnamed government source hides behind the media who publish his unproven garbage in order to sell more papers and books. Why dont the FBI look into this shyt?
RABEL222
 
  0  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 02:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, why do you assume that a law passed in Germany is automatically a law through out the world?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 02:09 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
Why dont the FBI look into this shyt?


Because the FBI report to those "gentlemen" and their bosses.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 02:13 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Not trying to be overly insulting, Walter, but he does seem to be calling the tune.

The German government seems to be dancing to it.
Since it's now online in English and perhaps better to understand than my broken language
Quote:
[...]
Opposition lawmakers have demanded that Snowden be allowed to come to Berlin and testify, but the German government has said doing so would hurt relations with the United States. ... ... ...

Parliamentarians from the two main parties in Merkel's ruling coalition, the Christian Democrats (CDU) and Social Democrats (SPD), had wanted to an "informal discussion" with Snowden in Moscow in preparation for a formal hearing.

The United States wishes to try Snowden on espionage charges, and has issued an international warrant for his arrest.
[...]
Sources


Your English is just fine, Walter. I wish I could do as well with a language other than English.

I see here (and in many other places) the assertion that Snowden is being charged with espionage.

Nearly as I can determine, so far Snowden has been charged with only three things:

Pursuant to 18 USC 641: Theft of government property

Pursuant to 18 USC 793(d): Unauthorized communication of National Defense information

Pursuant to 18 US 798(a)(3): Willful communication of classified government information to unauthorized persons.

None of those seem to be espionage, although two of them are obtained from the so-called Espionage Act.

Does anyone KNOW for sure if this qualifies as being charged with espionage…or if that is a separate and specific charge…which has not been made?
 

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