42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Remember the words, "Just following orders."
I will do so - but what has it to do with the investigation?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:39 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Remember the words, "Just following orders."
I will do so - but what has it to do with the investigation?


It has to do with the guy in that dark room you keep imagining, Walter...and what he was doing.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
Well, that's (perhaps) what they (= the prosecution) are investigating.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:42 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
You are kidding yourself if you think the spying is not going to be done.

Nothing wrong with kidding yourself. Do it as much as you want. But no matter how fervently you kid yourself...

...it will still be kidding yourself.


Of course spying is being done that fact does not mean that you should just roll over and not mount the greatest defenses you can against spying and with special note when it come to businesses and individuals that have fiduciary obligations to guard data such as lawyers and banks and so on.


I do not want to "mount a defense against spying." If it is an evil...it is a necessary evil. And I don't think it is and evil.

Quote:
Given what is currently known about the massive spying of the US government it would not be meeting those obligations to buy and use hardware and security software or services from any firm that can be order in secret by the US government to placed back doors in their produces as long as there are alternatives.



I repeat...if you want to kid yourself...feel free.



To me one of the best means of stopping this nonsense of massive spying is to cut the budget of NSA by 90 percents or so and by doing so force them to focus on real security threats and not just gathering every bit of information they can and for no better reason then they have the ability to do so.


Same as above, Bill.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I do not want to "mount a defense against spying." If it is an evil...it is a necessary evil. And I don't think it is and evil.
That's your opinion.
It is a crime here, when done here. A quite serious crime with up to 10 years imprisonment.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:51 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I do not want to "mount a defense against spying." If it is an evil...it is a necessary evil. And I don't think it is and evil.
That's your opinion.


Yes, of course it is my opinion. That is what we are exchanging here. Opinions.

Quote:

It is a crime here, when done here. A quite serious crime with up to 10 years imprisonment.


Bring on the trial, Walter.

You keep blowing wind about this.

Bring on the trial.

Oh...and suggest your government pass laws against drought and famine. We can't have any of that stuff going on in Germany.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 08:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Bring on the trial, Walter.

You keep blowing wind about this.

Bring on the trial.
I can't bring on the trial.
That's what the prosecution will ask the court to do.
If the prosecution does it. They can terminate the proceedings. Or carry on with the investigation since they are the" master of the proceedings" (Herr des Verfahrens)


Frank Apisa wrote:
Oh...and suggest your government pass laws against drought and famine.
Our government doesn't pass laws. That's done in the parliament (Bundestag/Bundesrat)
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 09:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If it is an evil...it is a necessary evil. And I don't think it is and evil.


Evil it is and as far as a necessary evil that is bullshit when it come to massive spying, not target spying, as there had not been a case where the government had been able to pointed out that massive spying programs had stop one terrorist plot.

Now thanks to the misguided NSA programs American firms are no longer trust worldwide, American citizens who are in the business of offering internet security and or doing security research are moving off shore beyond the reach of secret national security letters and the net is going dark with more and more encrypting offer as default for example the open source end to end email encrypting that is about to be offer by Google.

Quote:


http://www.wired.com/2014/06/end-to-end/

Google is taking another step towards an internet that can stand up to snooping from the NSA.

Today, the company released the source code for a new web browser plugin that encrypts your email messages before they’re sent across the net. Dubbed End-to-End, the plugin aims to prevent interlopers from reading messages even if they gain access to the computer servers that drive your web email service of choice. So, if you’re using Googles’s Gmail, it could thwart the NSA and other snoopers even if they have access to Google’s network.

The plugin isn’t yet available to the general public. The idea is for security researchers to heavily test the code before Google releases a completed version of the plugin that’s available to everyone. “The End-To-End team takes its responsibility to provide solid crypto very seriously, and we don’t want at-risk groups that may not be technically sophisticated–journalists, human-rights workers, et al–to rely on End-To-End until we feel it’s ready,” the company said in releasing the code. “Prematurely making End-To-End available could have very serious real world ramifications.”

Several other companies and independent open source projects are working on similar encryption tools, but this one has added heft because Google is behind it. Once it’s finished, End-to-End could be a big step forward for email privacy, but there are some big limitations, and critics say the tool could end up doing more harm than good.
revelette2
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 10:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
So what is the end result of all this supposed to be? Are ya'll going to be interviewing American citizens who work for NSA who were following orders who spied on Merkel or who ever in Germany? Who is going to enforce those individuals comply with the interviews?

I guess what I am getting at is I really don't see how the investigation can be anything other than putting together everything Snowden has revealed and making judgments on it. I mean I don't think Germany has jurisdiction with the employees at NSA even if it is stationed in Germany but I could be wrong.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 10:30 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
So what is the end result of all this supposed to be? Are ya'll going to be interviewing American citizens who work for NSA who were following orders who spied on Merkel or who ever in Germany? Who is going to enforce those individuals comply with the interviews?
I have no idea how the Federal Prosecution Office will handle the investigation. I suppose, they will order some police force to do the field work - what ever that might be.

I'm not sure why you ask especially about "American citizens" and "following order". Spying is a crime here, Americans aren't exempt in the law. And I think, not many are spying just on their own ...

The police acts for the prosecution - in this case, like in any other.



revelette2 wrote:
I guess what I am getting at is I really don't see how the investigation can be anything other than putting together everything Snowden has revealed and making judgments on it. I mean I don't think Germany has jurisdiction with the employees at NSA even if it is stationed in Germany but I could be wrong.
In Germany, German authorities have the jurisdiction ... besides, if the personal is under NATO statute (or enjoys diplomatic immunity).

[The idea isn't bad: all spies don't fall under the jurisdiction of the countries they spy in.]
revelette2
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 10:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I just think if this investigation is serious, it might open a can of worms it's not prepared for forcing US citizens sit down with German investigators over spying issues, I don't think it will go over well with the US government. At least it don't seem like it would. I don't see how it can be enforced without causing major issues between the US and Germany.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 10:52 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
I just think if this investigation is serious, ...


Something which gets a punishment up to ten years in prison is serious in my opinion.

revelette2 wrote:
... it might open a can of worms it's not prepared for forcing US citizens sit down with German investigators over spying issues, I don't think it will go over well with the US government. At least it don't seem like it would. I don't see how it can be enforced without causing major issues between the US and Germany.


I'm quite sure that some here in Germany don't like how German criminals are dealt with in the USA.

Might well be that some talks are done to influence our judiciary.
revelette2
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 10:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Well, in any case, it will be interesting to see if this takes off or anything comes from it.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 11:02 am
@revelette2,
Something must come from it since the investigations have been opened.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 12:47 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
I don't see how it can be enforced without causing major issues between the US and Germany.

How do you think the US would react if it discovered that the Germans had been tapping Obama's phone? Do you think they would quietly put the issue under the carpet not to offend Germany?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 01:32 pm
@Olivier5,
A very good report at "Lawfare"- Germany’s Prosecutor Rolls Up His Sleeves On NSA Surveillance - answers some of revelette's question better than I could do.
0 Replies
 
JLO1988
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 02:37 pm
@oralloy,
"The evidence is pretty clear that both Snowden and Manning committed the crimes that they are accused of."

Manning plead guilty, you are an ass clown, don't quote me.
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 03:06 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
I don't think it will go over well with the US government. At least it don't seem like it would. I don't see how it can be enforced without causing major issues between the US and Germany.


Given that the US government had admitted to spying on the German head of state why the hell would Germany give a **** if when finding out the extend of the spying it does not go over well with the US or not?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 03:17 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Given that the US government had admitted to spying on the German head of state why the hell would Germany give a **** if when finding out the extend of the spying it does not go over well with the US or not?
Merkel is the Chancellor of Germany and as such the head of the German government.

The head of state in Germany is the president, Gauck. It isn't known that he had been spied on.

However (quotes from July last year, from an interview in the Passauer Neueste Nachrichten):
"To be honest with you, I've also thought about whether I can still talk on the phone or send an email openly at all," said Gauck, adding, "The fear that our telephone calls or emails will be intercepted and stored by foreign secret services limits our feeling of being free."
And: "Whoever brings [information] to the public and acts on grounds of conscience deserves respect," said Gauck.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Fri 6 Jun, 2014 03:19 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
If it is an evil...it is a necessary evil. And I don't think it is and evil.


Evil it is and as far as a necessary evil that is bullshit when it come to massive spying, not target spying, as there had not been a case where the government had been able to pointed out that massive spying programs had stop one terrorist plot.

Now thanks to the misguided NSA programs American firms are no longer trust worldwide, American citizens who are in the business of offering internet security and or doing security research are moving off shore beyond the reach of secret national security letters and the net is going dark with more and more encrypting offer as default for example the open source end to end email encrypting that is about to be offer by Google.

Quote:


http://www.wired.com/2014/06/end-to-end/

Google is taking another step towards an internet that can stand up to snooping from the NSA.

Today, the company released the source code for a new web browser plugin that encrypts your email messages before they’re sent across the net. Dubbed End-to-End, the plugin aims to prevent interlopers from reading messages even if they gain access to the computer servers that drive your web email service of choice. So, if you’re using Googles’s Gmail, it could thwart the NSA and other snoopers even if they have access to Google’s network.

The plugin isn’t yet available to the general public. The idea is for security researchers to heavily test the code before Google releases a completed version of the plugin that’s available to everyone. “The End-To-End team takes its responsibility to provide solid crypto very seriously, and we don’t want at-risk groups that may not be technically sophisticated–journalists, human-rights workers, et al–to rely on End-To-End until we feel it’s ready,” the company said in releasing the code. “Prematurely making End-To-End available could have very serious real world ramifications.”

Several other companies and independent open source projects are working on similar encryption tools, but this one has added heft because Google is behind it. Once it’s finished, End-to-End could be a big step forward for email privacy, but there are some big limitations, and critics say the tool could end up doing more harm than good.



You have a right to your opinion...no matter how wrong it is.
 

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