42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Sun 25 May, 2014 02:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

You'll make the exception! Wow, who gave you that authority?


I have no official authority as I'm one American on the outside looking in, answering your questions on the a2k message board. My personal thought is I would make an exception in the case of the American-born terrorist who was the mastermind of the Underwear bomber who did not succeed in blowing up the Commercial airliner. I don't need any authority to think and or post my thoughts.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 25 May, 2014 03:08 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
I can agree that our opinions are only opinions, but that doesn't mean we can't challenge why an opinion isn't worth what's being stated.
Yes, it's your opinion, and I'm challenging it on the basis of why I believe your opinion hasn't considered other opinions values.

Move on!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 26 May, 2014 08:05 am
Quote:
In an exclusive interview with DW, Edward Snowden ally Glenn Greenwald says one central aim of breaking the NSA story was provoking a discussion about journalists' tacit deference to government power.

Greenwald: 'I wanted a debate about journalism'
revelette2
 
  1  
Mon 26 May, 2014 09:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Well, he really didn't get what he wished for then as I don't really know of any debate about journalism going on.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 26 May, 2014 09:39 am
@revelette2,
There were lots of them, maily last year. At least here.

And a google-search shows reports/comments about it in US-media as well.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 27 May, 2014 04:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Thanks to Edward Snowden, we know the apparatus of repression has been covertly attached to the democratic state. However, our struggle to retain privacy is far from hopeless

Privacy under attack: the NSA files revealed new threats to democracy
Quote:
[...]The power of that Roman empire rested in its leaders' control of communications. The Mediterranean was their lake. Across their European empire, from Scotland to Syria, they pushed roads that 15 centuries later were still primary arteries of European transportation. Down those roads the emperor marched his armies. Up those roads he gathered his intelligence. The emperors invented the posts to move couriers and messages at the fastest possible speed.

Using that infrastructure, with respect to everything that involved the administration of power, the emperor made himself the best-informed person in the history of the world.

That power eradicated human freedom. "Remember," said Cicero to Marcellus in exile, "wherever you are, you are equally within the power of the conqueror."

The empire of the United States after the second world war also depended upon control of communications. This was more evident when, a mere 20 years later, the United States was locked in a confrontation of nuclear annihilation with the Soviet Union. In a war of submarines hidden in the dark below the continents, capable of eradicating human civilisation in less than an hour, the rule of engagement was "launch on warning". Thus the United States valued control of communications as highly as the Emperor Augustus. Its listeners too aspired to know everything.

We all know that the United States has for decades spent as much on its military might as all other powers in the world combined. Americans are now realising what it means that we applied to the stealing of signals and the breaking of codes a similar proportion of our resources in relation to the rest of the world.

The US system of listening comprises a military command controlling a large civilian workforce. That structure presupposes the foreign intelligence nature of listening activities. Military control was a symbol and guarantee of the nature of the activity being pursued. Wide-scale domestic surveillance under military command would have violated the fundamental principle of civilian control.
[... ... ...]
Without secrecy, democratic self-government is impossible. Without secrecy, people may not discuss public affairs with those they choose, excluding those with whom they do not wish to converse.
[...]
In other words, privacy is a requirement of democratic self-government. The effort to fasten the procedures of pervasive surveillance on human society is the antithesis of liberty. This is the conversation that all the "don't listen to my mobile phone!" misdirection has not been about. If it were up to national governments, the conversation would remain at this phoney level forever.
[...]
... . By the end of the first decade of the 21st century, a gap opened between what the people of the world thought their rights were and what their governments had given away in return for intelligence useful only to the governments themselves. This gap was so wide, so fundamental to the meaning of democracy, that those who operated the system began to disbelieve in its legitimacy. As they should have done.
[...]
A nation conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal, enslaved millions of people. It washed away that sin in a terrible war. Americans should learn from that, and are called upon now to do so.
[...]
What if the underground railroad had been constantly under efforts of penetration by the United States government on behalf of slavery?

What if every book for the past 500 years had been reporting its readers at headquarters?

The bad news for the people of the world is we were lied to thoroughly by everybody for nearly 20 years. The good news is that Snowden has told us the truth.
[...]
In this context, we must remember that privacy is about our social environment, not about isolated transactions we individually make with others. When we decide to give away our personal information, we are also undermining the privacy of other people. Privacy is therefore always a relation among many people, rather than a transaction between two.
... ... ... ... ...


I think that it's worth to read the full report (link above).
The author, Eben Moglen, is a professor of law and legal history at Columbia University, and is the founder, Director-Counsel and Chairman of Software Freedom Law Center, whose client list includes numerous pro bono clients, such as the Free Software Foundation.
revelette2
 
  1  
Tue 27 May, 2014 08:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I know there was articles written on the subject of journalism and journalist were interested, but it wasn't really a public debate on journalism so much as data collecting and NSA debate.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 27 May, 2014 08:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Quote:
Thanks to Edward Snowden, we know the apparatus of repression has been covertly attached to the democratic state. However, our struggle to retain privacy is far from hopeless

Privacy under attack: the NSA files revealed new threats to democracy
Quote:
[...]The power of that Roman empire rested in its leaders' control of communications. The Mediterranean was their lake. Across their European empire, from Scotland to Syria, they pushed roads that 15 centuries later were still primary arteries of European transportation. Down those roads the emperor marched his armies. Up those roads he gathered his intelligence. The emperors invented the posts to move couriers and messages at the fastest possible speed.

Using that infrastructure, with respect to everything that involved the administration of power, the emperor made himself the best-informed person in the history of the world.

That power eradicated human freedom. "Remember," said Cicero to Marcellus in exile, "wherever you are, you are equally within the power of the conqueror."

The empire of the United States after the second world war also depended upon control of communications. This was more evident when, a mere 20 years later, the United States was locked in a confrontation of nuclear annihilation with the Soviet Union. In a war of submarines hidden in the dark below the continents, capable of eradicating human civilisation in less than an hour, the rule of engagement was "launch on warning". Thus the United States valued control of communications as highly as the Emperor Augustus. Its listeners too aspired to know everything.

We all know that the United States has for decades spent as much on its military might as all other powers in the world combined. Americans are now realising what it means that we applied to the stealing of signals and the breaking of codes a similar proportion of our resources in relation to the rest of the world.

The US system of listening comprises a military command controlling a large civilian workforce. That structure presupposes the foreign intelligence nature of listening activities. Military control was a symbol and guarantee of the nature of the activity being pursued. Wide-scale domestic surveillance under military command would have violated the fundamental principle of civilian control.
[... ... ...]
Without secrecy, democratic self-government is impossible. Without secrecy, people may not discuss public affairs with those they choose, excluding those with whom they do not wish to converse.
[...]
In other words, privacy is a requirement of democratic self-government. The effort to fasten the procedures of pervasive surveillance on human society is the antithesis of liberty. This is the conversation that all the "don't listen to my mobile phone!" misdirection has not been about. If it were up to national governments, the conversation would remain at this phoney level forever.
[...]
... . By the end of the first decade of the 21st century, a gap opened between what the people of the world thought their rights were and what their governments had given away in return for intelligence useful only to the governments themselves. This gap was so wide, so fundamental to the meaning of democracy, that those who operated the system began to disbelieve in its legitimacy. As they should have done.
[...]
A nation conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal, enslaved millions of people. It washed away that sin in a terrible war. Americans should learn from that, and are called upon now to do so.
[...]
What if the underground railroad had been constantly under efforts of penetration by the United States government on behalf of slavery?

What if every book for the past 500 years had been reporting its readers at headquarters?

The bad news for the people of the world is we were lied to thoroughly by everybody for nearly 20 years. The good news is that Snowden has told us the truth.
[...]
In this context, we must remember that privacy is about our social environment, not about isolated transactions we individually make with others. When we decide to give away our personal information, we are also undermining the privacy of other people. Privacy is therefore always a relation among many people, rather than a transaction between two.
... ... ... ... ...


I think that it's worth to read the full report (link above).
The author, Eben Moglen, is a professor of law and legal history at Columbia University, and is the founder, Director-Counsel and Chairman of Software Freedom Law Center, whose client list includes numerous pro bono clients, such as the Free Software Foundation.


The people who WANT to find something good in what Snowden did...will find it. The people who WANT to find something reprehensible in what he did...will find it.

Bottom line, though, is that a trial is the only way to determine if the government can prove its charge that Snowden violated the law.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 27 May, 2014 09:36 am
@revelette2,
Depends on what you call "a public debate".

It was (here) in the media, like the data collecting and the NSA affair.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 27 May, 2014 09:37 am
@Frank Apisa,
Thanks for copying/pasting my response, Frank.

But for me, it's still here on the thread.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 27 May, 2014 09:40 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thanks for copying/pasting my response, Frank.

But for me, it's still here on the thread.


I try to copy and paste everything to which I reply.

I know your response is still there...and there again in my response...and I hope you saw my response just below your response.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Tue 27 May, 2014 11:48 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I mean just ordinary people being interested enough to talk about it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 27 May, 2014 12:15 pm
According to several sources, the (German) Federal Prosecution Office won't investigate the actions by the NSA and/or GCHQ for the spying on Merkel's and other Germans phones, because there are neither witnesses and nor other sources available. (Spiegel didn't hand documents to the Federal Prosecution due to source protection.) Any further investigation wouldn't have more than a symbolic character.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 27 May, 2014 11:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
In response to those media reports that the German federal prosecutor general would not launch investigations into the spying of either German citizens or Merkel, a spokesman for the prosecutor said he would announce his decision shortly, and that he had had to weigh many open questions about the case.
The opposition party "Die Linke" /The Left) called it already perversion of the course of justice
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 28 May, 2014 07:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Finally, now the translated interview is online on the English website of Spiegel
Snowden's Lawyer: 'Mutually Agreed Solution with US Would Be Most Sensible'
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 28 May, 2014 09:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Finally, now the translated interview is online on the English website of Spiegel
Snowden's Lawyer: 'Mutually Agreed Solution with US Would Be Most Sensible'


The quotes from Snowden's lawyer sound like the kind of thing one might hear from Al Capone's lawyer...or Bernie Madoff's lawyer...or the Son of Sam's lawyer. That is what lawyers do when interviewed about their clients...say things that put their client and the client's actions in the most favorable light possible.

It is what we should all expect from any competent lawyer.

In any case, I am sure a mutually agreed solution between the US and Edward Snowden would be a "most sensible solution."

They could negotiate from the extremes...with Snowden asking for complete exoneration...and the US asking for life in prison without a trial and without the possibility of parole.

Or...they could agree that Snowden could come back to the US and be placed in custody with absolute assurances that his condition would be monitored daily...and he would stand trial on the charges currently facing him.

As I see it, ultimately, the trial has to take place--and that is what I hope happens.
BillRM
 
  1  
Wed 28 May, 2014 09:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
As I see it, ultimately, the trial has to take place--and that is what I hope happens.


Why the hell should he placed himself in the hands of a government that does not honor the constitution just to start with?

I live in an area of the US where nearly half of the population had fled from a repressive nation and have made a good life for themselves and Snowden can do the same and that is far better then being placed in a small cell for 23 hours out of 24 for the rest of his life.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 28 May, 2014 09:58 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
As I see it, ultimately, the trial has to take place--and that is what I hope happens.


Why the hell should he placed himself in the hands of a government that does not honor the constitution just to start with?


Maybe he shouldn't, Bill. Maybe he should apply for citizenship or permanent asylum in Russia where things are much more democratic, there is less spying, and he will be freer and enjoy much greater privacy.

Right?


Quote:
I live in an area of the US where nearly half of the population had fled from a repressive nation...


Huh?

Quote:
... and have made a good life for themselves and Snowden can do the same and that is far better then being placed in a small cell for 23 hours out of 24 for the rest of his life.


Okay, if you say so.

Let him know about it as an option.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 28 May, 2014 10:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
The quotes from Snowden's lawyer sound like the kind of thing one might hear from Al Capone's lawyer...or Bernie Madoff's lawyer...or the Son of Sam's lawyer.

Wolfgang Kaleck is a civil rights attorney. He is also the General Secretary for the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights.
I didn't know that the above mentioned had had or have similar positions.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 28 May, 2014 11:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The quotes from Snowden's lawyer sound like the kind of thing one might hear from Al Capone's lawyer...or Bernie Madoff's lawyer...or the Son of Sam's lawyer.

Wolfgang Kaleck is a civil rights attorney. He is also the General Secretary for the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights.
I didn't know that the above mentioned had had or have similar positions.


Walter, Wolfgang Kaleck could be the former Emperor of France and presently the Secretary General of the United Nations...

...and the things he said still would sound like the kind of thing one might hear from Al Capone's lawyer...or Bernie Madoff's lawyer...or the Son of Sam's lawyer.

So I am not sure of your point.


 

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