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Snowdon is a dummy

Forums: Politics, Snowden, Asylum, Nsa, Snowdon
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 09:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Could be even more interesting to see why German intelligence was not able to determine that the bugging was happening!
I'd thought that I posted that. There were not allowed to do so, by governmental orders/by-laws/laws and this stupid civil servant ethic about friends and allies.
But that seems to have been changed now.


Glad it changed. It was very dumb law...and made for not especially effective intelligence.

I wonder, though...if the spying on Merkel's phone had been done by someone not considered a close ally...would they have detected it?

glitterbag
 
  0  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 09:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I just looked it up: Snowden said that he did not, and that doesn't seem to been contradicted until now.




See what I mean. All he has to do is to stand trial...tell them he did not promise not to steal classified documents...and his name is forever cleared.


Perhaps mr. Snowdon doesn't feel a need to honor his word. One other thing, if you are employed by the Intelligence Community, you are not a Civil Servant. Snowdon worked for a private contractor and certainly would not be a civil servant, however to have access to classified information you have to swear an oath. Maybe he just crossed his fingers behind his back.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 10:31 am
@glitterbag,
You certainly are better informed, glitterbag.

What I found out on the web is that he signed a "CLASSIFIED INFORMATION NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT" (that seems similar to what I'd to sign, only ours was shorter).
In it, he (and others) "swore" (= affirmed) "to support and defend the Constitution of the U.S., against all enemies, foreign and domestic".
He (and others) "swore" to support and defend, among other elements of the Constitution, the First, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments in the Bill of Rights, and Article I, section 8, on war powers.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 10:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I wonder, though...if the spying on Merkel's phone had been done by someone not considered a close ally...would they have detected it?
Well, obviously she used mainly her private phone. I don't know, what and how she has decided her privacy to be handled.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 10:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I wonder, though...if the spying on Merkel's phone had been done by someone not considered a close ally...would they have detected it?
Well, obviously she used mainly her private phone. I don't know, what and how she has decided her privacy to be handled.


I agree...the phone that was bugged appears to have been Merkel's private phone.

But you indicated (or it appears you indicated) that your intelligence agencies were prevented by law from determining whether or not her phone was being bugged by a friend or close ally.

My question was...would they have known that her phone was being bugged if it were not the US or another close ally doing it...but rather someone not considered a close ally.

Do you see the problem I am trying to highlight here, Walter? It goes back to several things I have mentioned during our conversation about this spying.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 10:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
Well, Merkel's private phone is private ... like e.g. mine.
If anyone wants to "supervise" it, they need an order by a judge. Or, in Merkel's case, she most probably would have to tell "them" to do it. What she obviously didn't.
And that's something what I do understand - since she has an even more stringent opinion about privacy than I have.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 11:02 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you see the problem I am trying to highlight here, Walter? It goes back to several things I have mentioned during our conversation about this spying.[/b]
Yes, I see the problem.

And since many here now have lost trust in the USA, anti-Americanism is growing again.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 11:19 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, Merkel's private phone is private ... like e.g. mine.
If anyone wants to "supervise" it, they need an order by a judge. Or, in Merkel's case, she most probably would have to tell "them" to do it. What she obviously didn't.
And that's something what I do understand - since she has an even more stringent opinion about privacy than I have.


So...an enemy (if Germany has any) can feel free to bug the private phone of the head of state...and have reasonable expectations of not being discovered.

And if not an enemy, per se, just some techie who wants to do it as a lark.

I see something wrong with that. Amazed that you don't.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 11:23 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you see the problem I am trying to highlight here, Walter? It goes back to several things I have mentioned during our conversation about this spying.[/b]
Yes, I see the problem.

And since many here now have lost trust in the USA, anti-Americanism is growing again.


They ought to rethink that.

The fact that the US could do it...just shows it can be done. And apparently you folk do not have the apparatus in place to prevent it.

Lose all the trust you want to in the USA. Then, I would suggest you lose all the trust you can in everyone else.

And if German "anti-Americanism" grows enough...tell us you are going to invade us an kick our asses.

That ought to put a stop to things.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 11:26 am
@Frank Apisa,
Well, you haven't had the past that we had here.

And to be honest: I would find it more than dangerous as well, if my or anyone else's phone would be "supervised" by any intelligence ageny. And especially by our own.

I'm really happy that I haven't lived in Nazi Germany or the GDR - they had to get used to such what you want.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 11:31 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, you haven't had the past that we had here.

And to be honest: I would find it more than dangerous as well, if my or anyone else's phone would be "supervised" by any intelligence ageny. And especially by our own.

I'm really happy that I haven't lived in Nazi Germany or the GDR - they had to get used to such what you want.


Walter...I have never said it is what I want. That is just something you are dreaming up because of the frustration of seeing the logic of my arguments on this issue.

I have said it is inevitable...that personal privacy will soon be a fiction.

I have advised it is something we ought all to take into account...and come to accommodation with it.

For the record...I see the coming loss of privacy to have more positive aspects than negative. My guess is that future generations will wonder why we put up such a fuss...sorta like desegregation of schools in America or same sex marriages.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 11:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Frank would have felt at home in Nazi Germany or the GDR; his kind of place!
No government can do any wrong to its people - to protect them.

Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 11:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
For the record...I see the coming loss of privacy to have more positive aspects than negative. My guess is that future generations will wonder why we put up such a fuss...sorta like desegregation of schools in America or same sex marriages.
I've said it dozens times: you really can't understand us - you (or your parents, friends etc) hadn't lived under such a situation as we had between 1933 and 1945 - with 17 millions even until 1990.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 11:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Many countries went through the same crisis by trusting their government.
Many ended up dead.

The Gestapo and SS had their own family members turn in who they thought were threats to their society, and many did.

I just returned from Cambodia where Po Pot killed anyone who didn't follow his scheme to a agrarian society. Over two million were killed - in the Killing Fields.

Mao and Hitler are still heroes to many; including Frank.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 12:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I think you have gone too far saying Frank thinks Hitler is a hero. I think you owe him an apology. Personally, it find it insulting.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 12:05 pm
@glitterbag,
Well, then, Hitler would have loved Frank. How's that!
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 12:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Frank would have felt at home in Nazi Germany or the GDR; his kind of place!
No government can do any wrong to its people - to protect them.




A coward like you might have felt at home there, ci. I doubt seriously if I would have.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 12:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Many countries went through the same crisis by trusting their government.
Many ended up dead.

The Gestapo and SS had their own family members turn in who they thought were threats to their society, and many did.

I just returned from Cambodia where Po Pot killed anyone who didn't follow his scheme to a agrarian society. Over two million were killed - in the Killing Fields.

Mao and Hitler are still heroes to many; including Frank.


Not to me, ci, but a coward like you might consider them to be a hero.

Too bad you have to live in a place you despise so. Wink
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 12:38 pm
@glitterbag,
I find it insulting that Frank believes his "guesses" are more important than other people's opinions that has more credibility based on history, science, facts, and other people's actual experiences.

You can apologize to Frank all you wish, but you're in no position to tell others what to do.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 19 Apr, 2014 12:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I find it insulting that Frank believes his "guesses" are more important than other people's opinions that has more credibility based on history, science, facts, and other people's actual experiences.

You can apologize to Frank all you wish, but you're in no position to tell others what to do.


Glitterbag...ci knows I don't consider Hitler an heroic type...and he knows I am outspoken enough so that Hitler definitely would not have liked me.

ci insults me in comments to others, because that is the way cowards do things.

He despises this country...and tries to stay away from it as much as possible. He has the option of leaving completely, but I am supposing he does not have the guts to do it.

I have never suggested that my guesses are better than his...both are just guesses. His notion that his guesses are based on more facts and science are laughable.

He is laughable.
 

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