Snowdon is a dummy

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
It's odd how Apisa uses the necessity of not very pretty things happening in contrary ways depending which argument he is making. Spying has to be accepted because it is a necessity but those other not very pretty things are not to be accepted despite them having happened.

Not to mention that what Snowden did is basically spying. So if spying is necessary, so is Snowden.

Well, you twisted what I actually said. But...great point. He essentially is being accused of spying...which is a crime. He should stand trial and present a defense. If it works...he goes free. If it doesn't...he goes to prison.

I have never said there are no consequences of spying...just that it is necessary. Of course, I was talking about nations...but you have to twist everything, because your arguments make little sense unless you do.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Excellent point. If government can't follow the laws of our Constitution, how else will we the people know that the government is overstepping its boundaries of governing?

Why didn't you write what you really meant, ci? Was it because you were actually saying, "Excellent point...and you threw mud at the hated US...a country I despise...so I am agreeing with you."

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

If spying is a necessary evil, so is Snowden. Governments cannot be trusted to do the right thing, and the people MUST spy on them... simple as that.

In France we have an entire newspaper devoted to it, called le Canard Enchaîné. We couldn't survive without it...

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

If spying is a necessary evil, so is Snowden.

If you say so. I have not disagreed with that...so I am not sure of what your problem is with me on the issue.

Quote:

Governments cannot be trusted to do the right thing, and the people MUST spy on them... simple as that.

If you say so. And...there may be consequences of any spying...particularly a private citizen spying on his/her own country.

So what is your point?

Quote:

In France we have an entire newspaper devoted to it, called le Canard Enchaîné. We couldn't survive without it...

If you say France could not survive without it...I will have to take your word for it. (I do so with a great deal of reluctance!)

We do not carry le Canard Enchanine here...so...

...what to do?

Apparently you disagree that Snowden should be allowed a chance to clear his name...perhaps using the arguments you so eloquently offer here.

Why is that?

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

They don't think Snowden has anything to clear, they see him as a upstanding citizen just trying to expose the wrong doing of US and the UK spying and instead of being charged with a crime, they think he should be given a medal.

To me, all that is well and good, but I think in the process of doing the above, he may well have put people in danger and exposed secrets that could compromise ours and perhaps other countries security, moreover, he broke the law in doing so. A law put there for good reasons, not just for covering up things the US wants to cover up to keep people from knowing how much we spy on them but for security reasons.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

what is your point?

That people like Snowden are necessary for a democratic society to endure.

Quote:

We do not carry le Canard Enchanine here

Of course you do, any international newspaper shop in Manhattan would have it. The NYU library keeps microfilms of it from 1916 to date, if you're interested... :-)

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

It also provides the citizens of democracies to vote out those elected officials who fail to meet the citizens expectations - including privacy rights.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

They don't think Snowden has anything to clear, they see him as a upstanding citizen just trying to expose the wrong doing of US and the UK spying and instead of being charged with a crime, they think he should be given a medal.

To me, all that is well and good, but I think in the process of doing the above, he may well have put people in danger and exposed secrets that could compromise ours and perhaps other countries security, moreover, he broke the law in doing so. A law put there for good reasons, not just for covering up things the US wants to cover up to keep people from knowing how much we spy on them but for security reasons.

Your first point seems to the the major one, Revelette.

They honestly do not see what Snowden did...as possibly criminal.

He has almost acknowledged that he STOLE classified documents and gave them to people who were not authorized to have them.

It appears as though he did this despite having taken an oath NOT TO DO so.

He has been legally charged with crimes under prevailing statutes of the US.

For them to think there is nothing to clear...that there is no accounting necessary...is bizarre.

Even if his defense is that he had to do what he did...and that the world is a better place because of it...that accounting ought to take place before a jury of his peers in a fair trial.

Imagine how much better it would be for all the people who consider him to be a hero...if he were found NOT GUILTY...or if a HUNG JURY...or if a MISTRIAL or two.

He deserves his chance to clear his name...but the America haters want to assert that he cannot get a fair trial (they think only an acquittal or dropped charges would be fair)...and are against the suggestion.

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
what is your point?

That people like Snowden are necessary for a democratic society to endure.

Okay...and so are laws to prevent espionage.

Snowden apparently broke some of those laws.

I am calling for him to get a chance to clear his name.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

That certainly might be so.
Fortunately for the USA, until now nothing has been published what Merkel or any other of our government had said. As for this, you are still safe.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

It also provides the citizens of democracies to vote out those elected officials who fail to meet the citizens expectations - including privacy rights.

How the hell does someone stealing classified documents and giving them to people not authorized to have them...in defiance of an oath not to do so...

...provide citizens of democracies to vote out those elected officials who fair to meet blah, blah, blah???

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

...in defiance of an oath not to do so...

Just out of personal interest: did he have to swear an oath?
I got clearance up to top secret. I only had to sign not to ... bla, bla, bla, ... and if I did, I would get up to xx years prison or a fine of xxxDM ...

3 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I am calling for him to get a chance to clear his name

His name is perfectly clear...

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

That certainly might be so.
Fortunately for the USA, until now nothing has been published what Merkel or any other of our government had said. As for this, you are still safe.

Could be interesting to see what she said?

Could be interesting to see why the NSA thought it appropriate to bug her phone.

Could be even more interesting to see why German intelligence was not able to determine that the bugging was happening!

I wonder if German intelligence is simply not as effective as American intelligence...and I wonder how much of Germany's safety depends on American intelligence counterparts informing them of intelligence they are not able to gather on their own.

2 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
...in defiance of an oath not to do so...

Just out of personal interest: did he have to swear an oath?

I DO NOT KNOW. THERE HAS BEEN NO TRIAL WHERE THAT WOULD BE DETERMINED.

I'd certainly like to know...wouldn't you?

Quote:

I got clearance up to top secret. I only had to sign not to ... bla, bla, bla, ... and if I did, I would get up to xx years prison or a fine of xxxDM ...

That sorta is what an oath is...to comply with existing regulations and laws, Walter.

If the guy did no wrong and stands trial...he almost certainly will be acquitted.

Only way we are ever going to find out is if there is a trial.

Or...he can continue to accept asylum...with which I have no problem.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

I just looked it up: Snowden said that he did not, and that doesn't seem to been contradicted until now.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Could be even more interesting to see why German intelligence was not able to determine that the bugging was happening!

I'd thought that I posted that. There were not allowed to do so, by governmental orders/by-laws/laws and this stupid civil servant ethic about friends and allies.
But that seems to have been changed now.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
...in defiance of an oath not to do so...

Just out of personal interest: did he have to swear an oath?
I got clearance up to top secret. I only had to sign not to ... bla, bla, bla, ... and if I did, I would get up to xx years prison or a fine of xxxDM ...

Yes he actually had to swear an oath. American citizens working for or with US intelligence are bound to protect classified information for their lifetime.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I wonder if German intelligence is simply not as effective as American intelligence...and I wonder how much of Germany's safety depends on American intelligence counterparts informing them of intelligence they are not able to gather on their own.[/b]

Well, until a couple of weeks, our domestic intelligence service gave their results to the NSA on a weekly basis, in Berlin (offices) as well as in the Darmstadt (military barracks).
The counter-espionage department now seems to have get orders, to enclose the USA and the UK as targets as well.

NB: we just have three intelligence agencies: one small military agency, one domestic and one for foreign countries.
Counter-espionage is done by the military and the domestic agency.
The flow of information from German to the US-intelligence services seems to have been excellent, not only according to the Snowden papers.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I just looked it up: Snowden said that he did not, and that doesn't seem to been contradicted until now.

See what I mean. All he has to do is to stand trial...tell them he did not promise not to steal classified documents...and his name is forever cleared.

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know