42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 06:53 am
@revelette2,
... the whole spying issue just kind of faded out of the interest in the media and people in general ...

Exactly the same now.
And with me, too: I only noticed today what had been published three weeks ago in a Berlin daily newspaper: the USA asked Germany in 2009 to change laws in the German Data Protection Act


A joke published in Der Spiegel about that:
Phone call from NSA to German government:
NSA: "Could you perhaps alter your constitution a bit so that we can spy on your citizens more legal?"
Merkel government: ""Yes, of course But wait - since when are you interested our laws?"
NSA: "Good question. But we got the idea that it wouldn't be wrong to let you be accomplices."
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 07:23 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

... the whole spying issue just kind of faded out of the interest in the media and people in general ...

Exactly the same now.
And with me, too: I only noticed today what had been published three weeks ago in a Berlin daily newspaper: the USA asked Germany in 2009 to change laws in the German Data Protection Act


A joke published in Der Spiegel about that:
Phone call from NSA to German government:
NSA: "Could you perhaps alter your constitution a bit so that we can spy on your citizens more legal?"
Merkel government: ""Yes, of course But wait - since when are you interested our laws?"
NSA: "Good question. But we got the idea that it wouldn't be wrong to let you be accomplices."



Damn...I wish Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Great Britain had passed laws back in the 1930's against other nations invading them and bombing their cities...and then Germany, being such a law abiding nation, would not have done those things...and the entire wasteful World War II might have been avoided.

It appears, Walter, that you are suggesting that all law abiding countries should honor any laws of other countries which outlaw spying.

So all a country would have to do in this "civilized world" you imagine...is to pass laws against other countries spying on them!

Hummm.

Interesting suggestion for dealing with the problem!

Then I suppose, the "civilized nations" could pass laws against earthquakes, hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, and other natural disasters...and we would have a Utopia.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 07:32 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Damn...I wish Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Great Britain had passed laws back in the 1930's against other nations invading them and bombing their cities...and then Germany, being such a law abiding nation, would not have done those things...and the entire wasteful World War II might have been avoided.

It appears, Walter, that you are suggesting that all law abiding countries should honor any laws of other countries which outlaw spying.
Some time back, Frank, I'd thought, you were posting here a lot with tongue in cheek.

But this response really is insulting.

I haven't post anything about the 1930's nor about wars. I haven't posted anything about the Nazi-"constitution" in Germany.

I honestly don't think that any person with a bit of brain can think, our laws and especially our constitution to be the same as before 1948.

What I do think is that anyone should follow the laws in those countries they are in. And if they don't do it - they should be prosecuted and get a fair trial.

This is my last response to any of yours on this thread.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 07:48 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Damn...I wish Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Great Britain had passed laws back in the 1930's against other nations invading them and bombing their cities...and then Germany, being such a law abiding nation, would not have done those things...and the entire wasteful World War II might have been avoided.

It appears, Walter, that you are suggesting that all law abiding countries should honor any laws of other countries which outlaw spying.
Some time back, Frank, I'd thought, you were posting here a lot with tongue in cheek.

But this response really is insulting.

I haven't post anything about the 1930's nor about wars. I haven't posted anything about the Nazi-"constitution" in Germany.

I honestly don't think that any person with a bit of brain can think, our laws and especially our constitution to be the same as before 1948.

What I do think is that anyone should follow the laws in those countries they are in. And if they don't do it - they should be prosecuted and get a fair trial.

This is my last response to any of yours on this thread.


The notion that a nation can simply pass laws that outlaw spying against them is an absurdity, Walter.

You may think my comments are insulting, but there is a great deal more insulting in your constant hammering against the US on this issue.

We spy.

You Germans spy also.

No country is given immunity by passing laws against spying...and the notion you have been advocating, directly and indirectly in that direction, invite as much derision as I have been offering.

Respond...don't respond...to my comments as you see fit. But responses to your seemingly endless derision of my country are going to keep coming.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 07:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
I wasn't responding to spying but to our data protection laws.
And again: my response was about today's situation, not about the Nazi time.

Exactly the situation during the Nazi period (and the one in the GDR) gave as such data protection ... and our constitution.

My "hammering against the USA" is just and only, because until now the Snowden documents refer to NSA. Which is an US-agency.
When our intelligence agency builds some spy centres in an allied foreign country and spies from there on the government, citizens and businesses of that foreign country ... I wouldn't "like" such either.

And just for the record: I have never promoted anything the Nazis did. And I can't change the history of my native country either.


But somehow I can understand you: stop, look and listen! They did it 70, 80 years ago and might do it again.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 08:31 am
@Walter Hinteler,
My point, Walter, whether about spying or data protection...

...is that laws on an international level forbidding such activity are an absurdity...and lamenting that they are not being respected is, in my opinion, every bit as absurd.

It cannot work...it is illusionary as a "solution" to the kinds of problems you are encountering.

At no point have I considered you the kind of person who would promote what the Nazis did...and I did allow my anger and frustration with the invective that seems to be coming relentlessly toward the US...for doing what I see as necessary, reasonable, and not especially in conflict with what others are doing...or should be doing...to push me to extremes.

I apologize.

The notion of privacy is dead...individually and for nations. Any plans your nation are making are going to be known to us...and the plans we are making will be known to you. Some day, once again in my opinion, this will be seen as a tremendous plus for society...and for real moves toward us becoming a truly intelligent species.

There is not be less spying...there will be more...and the spying will be so intrusive it will make what you are complaining about seem benign.

I welcome that day. We want TRANSPARENCY. Well...we are about to get transparency on a scale never even imagined a while ago.

But until that time, we should each do all we can to keep our secrets.

Stealing classified documents and releasing them...is still against the law. You seem to favor obeying laws, Walter...and Edward Snowden has been charged with doing exactly that.

He should be tried.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 08:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
So in the same post, you are saying that laws against spying are ridiculous, AND condemn Snowden for having broken such laws... Try to be a bit more coherent.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 09:00 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

So in the same post, you are saying that laws against spying are ridiculous, AND condemn Snowden for having broken such laws... Try to be a bit more coherent.




I am plenty coherent to someone able to read with understanding, Olivier.

Give it another try...the reading, that is.
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 09:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
Show Olivier your coherency on language issues, Frank.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 09:14 am
@Frank Apisa,
Give it another try.... The coherence, I mean.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 09:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
We don't have "laws on an international level forbidding" spying and/or about data protection ... besides EU-laws.

When I am in the USA, I have to follow US-laws.
And here, I want my government to follow our constitution and our laws.
And that everyone who attacks my constitutional rights and acts against our laws should be tried.

Your apology is of course accepted.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 09:29 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Give it another try.... The coherence, I mean.


I didn't think you would actually try again, Olivier.

You just like to shoot off your mouth.

Hey...it is a lot more entertaining than you might imagine.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 09:33 am
@Frank Apisa,
Remind us, what absurd laws against spying did Snowden break, again? And does that mean he deserve an absurd trial?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 09:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

We don't have "laws on an international level forbidding" spying and/or about data protection ... besides EU-laws.

When I am in the USA, I have to follow US-laws.
And here, I want my government to follow our constitution and our laws.
And that everyone who attacks my constitutional rights and acts against our laws should be tried.

Your apology is of course accepted.


Then pass the laws. I am not suggesting you should not...I am suggesting that the kinds of laws you are talking about are as absurd as laws against earthquakes. And after you pass them, bring charges against anyone see as violators of those laws. Bring charges against the United States...or Israel...or Russia...or China...or anyone else breaking those laws.

Here in the US, we have laws protecting classified documents...and if those laws are broken, we will bring charges against those people.

We'll see how that works out. If the laws turn out not to be absurd...I will apologize again.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 09:36 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Remind us, what absurd laws against spying did Snowden break, again? And does that mean he deserve an absurd trial?


Snowden is charged with stealing classified documents...and releasing them to unauthorized persons, Olivier. I thought I mentioned that before.

The laws against stealing are not absurd.

Get someone to help you with this. It really is not that hard to understand...once you get the knack of the language.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 09:50 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Snowden is charged with stealing classified documents...and releasing them to unauthorized persons, Olivier.

In other words, spying... Are you saying that spies should be prosecuted by the people they spy on? What a radical idea...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 10:05 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Snowden is charged with stealing classified documents...and releasing them to unauthorized persons, Olivier.

In other words, spying... Are you saying that spies should be prosecuted by the people they spy on? What a radical idea...


If you want to consider that "spying"...do so. But since English is a second language for you, I suggest you get someone to help you with the issue.

In any case, Snowden is charged with stealing classified documents and releasing them to unauthorized persons (in violation of laws here in the US)...and he should be given the opportunity to a defense in a court of law.

I do not think he is a dummy.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 10:38 am
@Frank Apisa,
My English is good enough to understand the meaning of spying. Spies should be prosecuted, we agree on that.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 11:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Then pass the laws. I am not suggesting you should not...I am suggesting that the kinds of laws you are talking about are as absurd as laws against earthquakes. And after you pass them, bring charges against anyone see as violators of those laws. Bring charges against the United States...or Israel...or Russia...or China...or anyone else breaking those laws.

Here in the US, we have laws protecting classified documents...and if those laws are broken, we will bring charges against those people.

Well, we have not only laws protecting our privacy but it is part of our constitution as a human right.
Might be that they are absurd in opinion - but it would take 2/3 of our parliament to change the constitution ... and most surely, the Federal Constitutional Court would join the discussion as well ...

Spying is a crime here - I'd thought, it is in the USA as well?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2014 11:31 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

My English is good enough to understand the meaning of spying. Spies should be prosecuted, we agree on that.


Spying should be prosecuted, Olivier, we do agree on that.

My opinion is that Snowden is not a dummy; that he is not a traitor; that he is not a spy...and of course, that he is not a hero.

I think he is a misguided individual who may have stolen classified documents and released them to unauthorized people.

He certainly has been charged with stealing classified documents and releasing them to unauthorized people.


He has the right to a fair trial on those charges.

I want to see him get that fair trial.
 

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