Snowdon is a dummy

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Who is legally charged with that?

LOL as the very people who would level such charges are part of the same group that are openly guilt of breaking our laws and our constitution the likelihood of them being charge is near to zero.

Kind of similar to asking why Hoover and his agents was never charge with
their illegal breakins and wiretappings.

It would seems that at least the executive branch of our government is in the hands of an ongoing criminal conspiracy in regards to so call national security matters.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

The USA has the ability to spy on damn near anyone at almost any time. It is not unreasonable to suppose that EVERY state that has ever existed has used its ability to spy to the maximum it could...and there is no reason whatever to suppose that the US is the nation that would reverse this disposition.

We spy, because we assume everyone spies...and we use everything we have available to do so...because we assume everyone does that also.

Quote:
You see, our history isn't really the best, especially in the first half of the 20th century.
With the help of the USA, the UK and France we got democracy again, a Constitution ... and new friends/allies.
Obviously, at least two of them don't trust us - even nearly 70 years after they defeated us. We are a fully sovereign country since the Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany (1990) ... on paper.

I understand all that, Walter. But you are refusing to see all of this in perspective.

All countries appear to spy on other countries...and that includes friends spying on friends.

That just seems to be the norm.

We spy; you spy; they spy...all god's chillen spy.

Stop dwelling on it.

Yes...you have laws against it.

Fine.

If the laws work so well...pass laws against earthquakes.

You are taking it way too personally...and making too much of it.

I can tell you that if we found out tomorrow that the German intelligence community has not only been spying on the US...it has been spying on Barack Obama's ever present Blackberry...

...I would just say, "If they have the ability to do so....OF COURSE THEY ARE."

I most assuredly would not think any less of you, your country, or your intelligence community.

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I think that what Olivier suggested is a fine idea. Don't let the fact that it is coming from a French citizen make you think it is anything less.

Write letters to all the major newspapers in Germany suggesting that the government do just that. Try to rally support for it.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

O5: @Olivier5,
The question being, of course: do US spooks deserve a fair trial? I think they do.

////////

Just like these folks, right, O? A fair trial given them by the USA.

::::::::::::::::

http://www.namebase.org/kadane.html

"...in four months,
five times as many
people died in
Indonesia as in
Vietnam in
twelve years."
-- Bertrand Russell, 1966

The following article appeared in the Spartanburg, South Carolina Herald-Journal on May 19, 1990, then in the San Francisco Examiner on May 20, 1990, the Washington Post on May 21, 1990, and the Boston Globe on May 23, 1990. The version below is from the Examiner.
Ex-agents say CIA compiled death lists for Indonesians

After 25 years, Americans speak of their
role in exterminating Communist Party

by Kathy Kadane, States News Service, 1990

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. government played a significant role in one of the worst massacres of the century by supplying the names of thousands of Communist Party leaders to the Indonesian army, which hunted down the leftists and killed them, former U.S. diplomats say.
For the first time, U.S. officials acknowledge that in 1965 they systematically compiled comprehensive lists of Communist operatives, from top echelons down to village cadres. As many as 5,000 names were furnished to the Indonesian army, and the Americans later checked off the names of those who had been killed or captured, according to the U.S. officials.

The killings were part of a massive bloodletting that took an estimated 250,000 lives.

The purge of the Partai Komunis Indonesia (PKI) was part of a U.S. drive to ensure that Communists did not come to power in the largest country in Southeast Asia, where the United States was already fighting an undeclared war in Vietnam. Indonesia is the fifth most-populous country in the world.

Silent for a quarter-century, former senior U.S. diplomats and CIA officers described in lengthy interviews how they aided Indonesian President Suharto, then army leader, in his attack on the PKI.

"It really was a big help to the army," said Robert J. Martens, a former member of the U.S. Embassy's political section who is now a consultant to the State Department. "They probably killed a lot of people, and I probably have a lot of blood on my hands, but that's not all bad. There's a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment."

White House and State Department spokesmen declined comment on the disclosures.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Quote:
..........of such a nature as those brave men and women who broke the laws to run the underground railroad or chase the slave catchers out of the north at gun point for that matter at the very time the SC was ruling that no black person no matter if born free or slave can be a citizen of the US.

I cringe and recoil at you mentioning Edward Snowden in the same paragraph as those people. But it is the kind of thing I have gotten to expect from you.

Why do you oppose allowing Edward Snowden to have a fair trial?

Would you had been in favor of the operators of the underground railroad having a "fair" trial in the south in the 1850s?

The governments of the southern states was control by slaveholders in the 1850s and the government is now control by those in bed with our out of control intelligence community.

Oh the underground railroad men and women was fighting for the freedom of roughly 1/12 of the then population of the nation and Snowden is fighting for the freedom of 99.999999 percents of the current population.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
..........of such a nature as those brave men and women who broke the laws to run the underground railroad or chase the slave catchers out of the north at gun point for that matter at the very time the SC was ruling that no black person no matter if born free or slave can be a citizen of the US.

I cringe and recoil at you mentioning Edward Snowden in the same paragraph as those people. But it is the kind of thing I have gotten to expect from you.

Why do you oppose allowing Edward Snowden to have a fair trial?

Would you had been in favor of the operators of the underground railroad having a "fair" trial in the south in the 1850s?

We are not in the 1850's in the south, Bill.

Why are you against allowing Edward Snowden to get a fair trial?

Quote:

The governments of the southern states was control by slaveholders in the 1850s and the government is now control by those in bed with our out of control intelligence community.

So...you want to do away with the Constitution and all that it has provided us...in order to save the Constitution???

Sorta like saving a village from communism by killing all the inhabitants, wouldn't you say?

Quote:

Oh the underground railroad men and women was fighting for the freedom of roughly 1/12 of the then population of the nation and Snowden is fighting for the freedom of 99.999999 percents of the current population.

Did you know that 93.4% of all statistics are made up right on the spot?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank: Sorta like saving a village from communism by killing all the inhabitants, wouldn't you say?
------

You are familiar with USA foreign aid, you ole dog!

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I think that what Olivier suggested is a fine idea. Don't let the fact that it is coming from a French citizen make you think it is anything less.

Write letters to all the major newspapers in Germany suggesting that the government do just that. Try to rally support for it.

Hmm. Perhaps, you don't know that the spying is done
a) from the US-embassy, by persons with diplomatic status,
b) from US-military facilities, where Germans aren't allowed to enter and where the personal is safe due to various status of forces agreements?

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@Walter Hinteler,

The sneaky bastards.

Good man, Walt.

1 Reply

@McTag,

It's nice to see you expanding your horizons, McTag. I hope to see more of you in threads of this nature.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

We are not in the 1850's in the south, Bill.

Why are you against allowing Edward Snowden to get a fair trial?

No the Snowden type of citizens won that battle concerning slavery a long time ago now the current battle is for the right of privacy found in the constitution with special note of the Bill of Rights.

Given that the current executive branch of the US government is in league with the out of control intelligence community to the same degree that in the 1850s the southern states governments was in league with the slaveholders getting a so call "fair" trial for Snowden is as likely as a conductor on the underground railroad getting a "fair" trial over the hundreds of thousands dollars of human property he stole from the slaveholders.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I think that what Olivier suggested is a fine idea. Don't let the fact that it is coming from a French citizen make you think it is anything less.

Write letters to all the major newspapers in Germany suggesting that the government do just that. Try to rally support for it.

Hmm. Perhaps, you don't know that the spying is done
a) from the US-embassy, by persons with diplomatic status,
b) from US-military facilities, where Germans aren't allowed to enter and where the personal is safe due to various status of forces agreements?

Then write letters to the newspapers...and rally supporters for a total divorce from the USA. All personnel out...no diplomatic relations...no bases...no trade.

That'll show us.

Or just recognize that is seems all countries spy on other countries to the max of their abilities...and the US IS DOING THAT!q

Back to Snowden, though...he really deserves an opportunity to show his admirers what a valiant hero he actually is.

Come back...face trial...and see if his story flies.

According to his admirers...he was willing to give up his freedom for the greater good of the citizens of the United States...and the world. He might not have to...his defense may carry the day.

But the only way to find out is to face trial...

...or just stay put in political asylum.

3 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
We are not in the 1850's in the south, Bill.

Why are you against allowing Edward Snowden to get a fair trial?

No the Snowden type of citizens won that battle concerning slavery a long time ago now the current battle is for the right of privacy found in the constitution with special note of the Bill of Rights.

Given that the current executive branch of the US government is in league with the out of control intelligence community to the same degree that in the 1850s the southern states governments was in league with the slaveholders getting a so call "fair" trial for Snowden is as likely as a conductor on the underground railroad getting a "fair" trial over the hundreds of thousands dollars of human property he stole from the slaveholders.

Well...if that is the case...and if you are sure he was willing to give up his freedom in order to do this great service for mankind...

...let him come back and face the music.

You seem so convinced that he cannot get a fair trial here in this country. I must say, that no matter how much you protest, I think you scorn our government and its institutions.

I know what I'd do if I were in that situation.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Do you honestly think the German state has showed itself during the last 100 years to be above suspicion? That the German people can be relied upon by its history to be non-aggressive...and steadfast?

Crikey!! A raging Thatcherite. The Lady went further than that.

Has nobody thought fit to mention the events in Kiev in relation to the ultimate political authority. Which is now being hunted down by some of the cops. Charged with mass murder and crimes against humanity.

Apisa's SCOTUS argument is as empty as a piss-pot in a piss-pot shop. Might is the ultimate political authority and the feather-bedded know that which is why they don't push things too far. One man can take the money and fly out but a whole class can't.

About half the population of the US seem to think that being spied upon by people they have paid to bring up and educate and who can afford better restaurants and cars and houses than most of them can on the current payments, ongoing I expect, is going too far. A court declaring imprisoning and torturing Kiev protesters constitutional is now dithering in its panty-pads. In a week.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I have the greatest respect for you, Walter.

After telling Walt to keep on sulking. Apisa respects nobody.

What does ordinary respect look like if telling Walt to keep on sulking is the greatest.

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@JTT,

Do you call me Romeo as an insult or do you have Alzheimer and mix up posters' names? I hope the former, because with Frank here, we've got enough members in their 'second childhood' already...

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Do you call me Romeo as an insult or do you have Alzheimer and mix up posters' names? I hope the former, because with Frank here, we've got enough members in their 'second childhood' already...

At least I have the spine to address remarks to the people for whom I intend them...rather than the cowardly way you do things.

But being a coward does not make you a bad guy. Wink

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Hmm. Perhaps, you don't know that the spying is done
a) from the US-embassy, by persons with diplomatic status,

Such status is granted by Germany (or other states being spied on) and can be revoked. Such personnel can be expelled, etc. There are ways. Worse come to worse, accidents happen...

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Back to Snowden, though...

You don't seem to get it: if Snowden hadn't done what he did (and the international nwspapers published his documents) we - and you (sic!) - would never have known ALL (sic!) those facts ...

You have to excuse me, Frank, but I don't respond to the other parts in post - I've missed the lessons how to reply to such while playing in the kindergarten's sandbox.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

He have no moral obligation to subject himself to the judgement of the current US government any more then a conductor of an underground railroad station had the moral obligation to turn himself into the government of any of the southern states.

footnote: after the Lincoln Assassination the US government round up everyone with any connection to Booth including the landlady of the boarding house Booth was staying at and gave them a "fair" trial and hung them all.

The landlady son was also charge with the same charges as his mother but he ran to the Canadian border and did not get drag back to the US until 1866

After turning himself in after the emotions had died down he was found innocent of all charges and live out his remaining life in peace.

Hopefully Snowden can some day return to the US and get a "fair" trial but now is not the time any more then it was for John Surratt as if he had done so he would had hung right by his mother.

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

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