Snowdon is a dummy

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Sorry...

One of the sorriest!

Quote:

...criminals that have attacked the constitution, broke their oaths of offices by doing so and then lied to congress should not be in any position to decide to prosecuted the very person who had brought their crimes to the light of day.

People who steal classified government documents and release them to unauthorized individuals...are breaking the law.

Edward Snowden is charged with this crime.

I am not saying he is guilty...or that he has no valid defense.

But he certainly deserves a fair trial...which is what I advocate, Bill. I have trouble understanding why you want to deny him a right to a fair trial.

Quote:

Nor should criminals be allow to declare secret the very proof of their misdeeds/crimes.

Separate matter, Bill.

Snowden has been charged with crimes...and he should be allowed a fair trial. Why do you want to deny him a right to clear his name?

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Obama is for cutting the US military down to pre World War Two levels but cutting NSA budget by eighty percent or so and selling all those hard drives and other hardware being now use to spy on US citizens would be a far better saving of funds in my opinion.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Bill. I have trouble understanding why you want to deny him a right to a fair trial.

It is beyond me how anybody can deal with a gump like Apisa.

If that doesn't mitigate MiT's admiration nothing will.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Obama is for cutting the US military down to pre World War Two levels but cutting NSA budget by eighty percent or so and selling all those hard drives and other hardware being now use to spy on US citizens would be a far better saving of funds in my opinion.

And you are entitled to that opinion...although I seriously doubt that selling the hard drives and hardware would come even close to the kinds of savings his alternative will have.

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@Olivier5,

O5: Hey JTT, you 'forgot' to address my list of historical good deeds by the US... As I knew you would.
////////

I'm sorry, O, I keep mistaking you for Romeo Fabulini.

What makes you think repeating some lines of USA long standing propaganda is some measure of the truth? Romeo spewed all the same nonsense and his nonsense was shot down in flames.

I have started two threads for various folks, mostly Americans, who said the same thing you are saying, "Hey what about all the good the USA does?!"

There have never been any takers. Why do you think there are so many Americans who pretend they have put me on ignore? It's simple. They don't have to face reality then. Similar to what you are doing here, Romeo.

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@Frank Apisa,

Okay, so I accept this very subtle criticism.
But keep on sulking: that our largest ally thinks, our government, our politicians, our businesses, our citizens might support terrorism and could be a thread to US-security ("NSA: Defending Our Nation. Securing The Future.")

And that the NSA is breaking our laws, on our soil, obviously according to the US-Constitution but opposing our Basic Law.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank: The guy is charged with stealing classified government documents, Bill. Since you are so dedicated to following the Constitution...that document provides for laws...and what happens when laws are broken.

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The guy is charged with stealing classified government documents, By the very criminals that Ed Snowden exposed.

Since you are so dedicated to following the Constitution...that document provides for laws...and what happens when laws are broken by criminals who want to protect themselves from prosecution - they blame the very folks who are honest and brave enough to risk all to expose them AND they rely on woefully ignorant folks who are blinded either by "my country right or wrong" or base political considerations.

Either way, Frank, you and MiT and the others who support these criminals really are much as citizens and patriots though you do mistakenly consider yourself to be so.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Okay, so I accept this very subtle criticism.

Thank you. I have the greatest respect for you, Walter. You are a fair and reasonable individual. We happen to disagree on Snowden...and I have an area of disagreement on so of your thoughts re: our spying.

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But keep on sulking: that our largest ally thinks, our government, our politicians, our businesses, our citizens might support terrorism and could be a thread to US-security ("NSA: Defending Our Nation. Securing The Future.")

If our government did not think that there might be danger of German citizens supporting terrorism (or of Tonga citizens supporting terrorism; or Andorrans; Swiss; Portuguese; Monacan; Nepalese...you get the picture)...I would be very upset. In this day and age, Walter, any and all ought to be suspect to one degree or another.

Do you honestly think the German state has showed itself during the last 100 years to be above suspicion? That the German people can be relied upon by its history to be non-aggressive...and steadfast?

The USA has the ability to spy on damn near anyone at almost any time. It is not unreasonable to suppose that EVERY state that has ever existed has used its ability to spy to the maximum it could...and there is no reason whatever to suppose that the US is the nation that would reverse this disposition.

We spy, because we assume everyone spies...and we use everything we have available to do so...because we assume everyone does that also.

To make too big a thing of this is naive...but I reiterate what I said earlier that I cannot fully appreciate what the German people think considering their recent history.

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And that the NSA is breaking our laws, on our soil, obviously according to the US-Constitution but opposing our Basic Law.

Yes...and life is not fair, Walter.

I think there is very little chance anything substantial will be done to change things appreciably...and even if some minor changes are made now...the next person in office will probably circumvent them.

Spying will go on...and it will occur between allies.

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@Frank Apisa,

But this thread is about what Edward Snowden did...and he is charged with stealing classified government documents and releasing them to unauthorized people.

He deserves a fair trial. If found not guilty, he deserves to go free; if found guilty, there is a price he must pay.

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Long, but very interesting, expose on 'the deep state' by a former congressional staffer. I'm still reading…

http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank: our government did not think that there might be danger of German citizens supporting terrorism (or of Tonga citizens supporting terrorism; or Andorrans; Swiss; Portuguese; Monacan; Nepalese...you get the picture)

Frank: (4 paragraphs later) To make too big a thing of this is naive...but I reiterate ... .

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

He deserves a fair trial. If found not guilty, he deserves to go free; if found guilty, there is a price he must pay.

But no price of any kind for lying to congress it would seems and breaking oaths to defend the constitution or...........

Strange universe you live in where you are all hot for punishing anyone who have the courage to informed the American people of crimes being done in their names with their tax funds.

Snowden is a hero...........of such a nature as those brave men and women who broke the laws to run the underground railroad or chase the slave catchers out of the north at gun point for that matter at the very time the SC was ruling that no black person no matter if born free or slave can be a citizen of the US.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Do you honestly think the German state has showed itself during the last 100 years to be above suspicion? That the German people can be relied upon by its history to be non-aggressive...and steadfast?

No. And that's the reason why I oppose a country spying on it's own citizens ... and on its friends/allies.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
He deserves a fair trial. If found not guilty, he deserves to go free; if found guilty, there is a price he must pay.

But no price of any kind for lying to congress it would seems and breaking oaths to defend the constitution or...........

Who is legally charged with that?

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Strange universe you live in where you are all hot for punishing anyone who have the courage to informed the American people of crimes being done in their names with their tax funds.

You are the one in the very strange universe, Bill.

You want to defend the Constitution by eliminating it!

Get over it.

Quote:

Snowden is a hero.

Perhaps to you...not to me. There are also people who consider him a traitor. He is not that to me either.

He is charged with serious crimes. I want to see him get a fair trial.

Why are you so opposed to him getting a fair trial?

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..........of such a nature as those brave men and women who broke the laws to run the underground railroad or chase the slave catchers out of the north at gun point for that matter at the very time the SC was ruling that no black person no matter if born free or slave can be a citizen of the US.

I cringe and recoil at you mentioning Edward Snowden in the same paragraph as those people. But it is the kind of thing I have gotten to expect from you.

Why do you oppose allowing Edward Snowden to have a fair trial?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Do you honestly think the German state has showed itself during the last 100 years to be above suspicion? That the German people can be relied upon by its history to be non-aggressive...and steadfast?

No. And that's the reason why I oppose a country spying on it's own citizens ... and on its friends/allies.

I do not understand that at all, Walter????

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@JTT,

So no reply to my list of US good deeds? You said you would take on those items one by one, and I was looking forward to a little exchange here... No show huh?

I already knew you were a liar but I didn't know you were a coward... Smile

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

The USA has the ability to spy on damn near anyone at almost any time. It is not unreasonable to suppose that EVERY state that has ever existed has used its ability to spy to the maximum it could...and there is no reason whatever to suppose that the US is the nation that would reverse this disposition.

We spy, because we assume everyone spies...and we use everything we have available to do so...because we assume everyone does that also.

Quote:
You see, our history isn't really the best, especially in the first half of the 20th century.
With the help of the USA, the UK and France we got democracy again, a Constitution ... and new friends/allies.
Obviously, at least two of them don't trust us - even nearly 70 years after they defeated us. We are a fully sovereign country since the Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany (1990) ... on paper.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

the NSA is breaking our laws, on our soil, obviously according to the US-Constitution but opposing our Basic Law.

Time to arrest a few US spook and jail them for life. It's the only thing these punks will understand.

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@Olivier5,

The question being, of course: do US spooks deserve a fair trial? I think they do. Wink

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@Olivier5,

Your list of USA good deeds was as probative as Romeo's, Romeo.

Go ahead and describe, in something approaching a factual manner, any one from your list of USA good deeds.

Should be a piece of cake considering their long propaganda, err history.

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Snowdon is a dummy

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