42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 05:05 pm
@BillRM,
When do you think the sheeple are going to catch on to the boogeyman routine, Bill? I mean, this nonsense has only been going on for a couple hundred years.
anonymously99
 
  0  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 06:16 pm
@JTT,
Regretfully.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 06:42 pm
Quote:


https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/prospect-blackmail-nsa

On the Prospect of Blackmail by the NSA
By Jay Stanley, Senior Policy Analyst, ACLU Speech, Privacy & Technology Project at 11:47am

Sometimes when I hear public officials speaking out in defense of NSA spying, I can’t help thinking, even if just for a moment, “what if the NSA has something on that person and that’s why he or she is saying this?”

Of course it’s natural, when people disagree with you, to at least briefly think, “they couldn’t possibly really believe that, there must be some outside power forcing them to take that position.” Mostly I do not believe that anything like that is now going on.

But I cannot be 100% sure, and therein lies the problem. The breadth of the NSA’s newly revealed capabilities makes the emergence of such suspicions in our society inevitable. Especially given that we are far, far away from having the kinds of oversight mechanisms in place that would provide ironclad assurance that these vast powers won’t be abused. And that highlights the highly corrosive nature of allowing the NSA such powers. Everyone has dark suspicions about their political opponents from time to time, and Americans are highly distrustful of government in general. When there is any opening at all for members of the public to suspect that officials from the legislative and judicial branches could be vulnerable to leverage from secretive agencies within the executive branch—and when those officials can even suspect they might be subject to leverage—that is a serious problem for our democracy.

There has already been prominent speculation about this threat. David Sirota explicitly mulled the subject in this (paywalled) piece, as have writers at Firedoglake and TechDirt. Whistleblower Russell Tice has also alleged that while at the agency he saw wiretap information for members of Congress and the judiciary firsthand. Such fears explain why it is considered an especially serious matter any time elected or judicial officials are eavesdropped upon. The New York Times reported in 2009 that some NSA officials had tried to wiretap a member of Congress without a warrant. Members of Congress (and perhaps the judiciary) surely also noted a Washington Post report based on Snowden documents that the NSA had intercepted a “large number” of calls from the Washington DC area code due to a “programming error.”

Dark suspicions about the NSA will also draw powerful support from the historical record. Already a sitting U.S. Senator has invoked the memory of J. Edgar Hoover as a means of expressing misgivings about NSA spying. It can be useful to recall the history with a little detail. Journalist Ronald Kessler describes the former FBI director’s M.O. in his book on Hoover:

“The moment [Hoover] would get something on a senator,” said William Sullivan, who became the number three official in the bureau under Hoover, “he’d send one of the errand boys up and advise the senator that ‘we’re in the course of an investigation, and we by chance happened to come up with this data on your daughter. But we wanted you to know this. We realize you’d want to know it.’ Well, Jesus, what does that tell the senator? From that time on, the senator’s right in his pocket.”

Lawrence J. Heim, who was in the Crime Records Division, confirmed to me that the bureau sent agents to tell members of Congress that Hoover had picked up derogatory information on them.

“He [Hoover] would send someone over on a very confidential basis,” Heim said. As an example, if the Metropolitan Police in Washington had picked up evidence of homosexuality, “he [Hoover] would have him say, ‘This activity is known by the Metropolitan Police Department and some of our informants, and it is in your best interests to know this.’ But nobody has ever claimed to have been blackmailed. You can deduce what you want from that.”

Even in 1945, a month after taking office, President Truman wrote of Hoover’s FBI, “We want no Gestapo or Secret Police. FBI is tending in that direction. They are dabbling in sex life scandals and plain blackmail.” Two years later he observed, “all Congressmen and Senators are afraid of him.”

It wasn’t just the FBI. In the 1970s, for example, the “intelligence” division of the Chicago Police Department similarly engaged in widespread institutionalized blackmail efforts. “A principal tactic of this operation was the dissemination of file material for the purpose of doing damage to targets held in disfavor,” writes Frank Donner in his chronicle of Cold War-era police repression, Protectors of Privilege. To take just one example: the police carried out intensive surveillance of the personal life of the director of the Community Renewal Society (CRS), a do-good religious organization aimed at improving inner-city life—as well as hundreds of others involved with the group. The reason? Because the organization had “views and goals diametrically opposed to those of the administration of this city.” A columnist quoted an unnamed insider as saying about one target, “They wanted to see if they could get something on him that was dirty… something out of his personal life that would be used to discredit him…. There wasn’t a move he made that they didn’t know about.” Documents later revealed that at least some of these investigations were ordered directly by the mayor’s office.

When a coalition of civic, religious, and community groups in Chicago called the AER started a campaign to uncover and litigate against these practices, police fought back. As Donner writes, Chicago’s police superintendent, testifying in 1978, issued a cry that sounds all-too-familiar to our ears today:

the superintendent charged that the lawsuit had rendered the Chicago Police Department “virtually helpless to protect the city from terrorist activity.” In fact, at the time the charges were made, the [Chicago Police Department’s] generously funded intelligence division was operating eight intelligence squads, including one specializing in terrorism.

Although Chicago under Mayor William Daley was the worst, Donner shows that these kinds of abuses by “intelligence units” were widespread during the Cold War (and before that, during the labor battles of the early 20th century).

If we allow the NSA to retain the powers it wants, it’s not at all crazy to worry about how those powers could be used now or in the future to grab even more frightening power through blackmail of ostensible overseers. And it doesn’t require crude, explicit blackmail to affect behavior and confer power through personal information; even the vaguest threat or intimation of eavesdropping and exposure can introduce substantial chilling effects, even on those who may think they have “nothing to hide.”

In many ways such fears, although often unspoken, lie at the core of what so many people find objectionable about allowing government agencies such vast eavesdropping powers. The understanding that personal information about people can confer leverage over those people is at the heart of the privacy issue.

And again, even in the absence of any actual malfeasance, suspicion of such is itself a problem.

If there’s a silver lining to this, it’s the fact that (as I wrote about here) when it comes to privacy, good policy often emerges only when politicians and other policymakers start to feel personally threatened by its violation. Maybe as members of Congress and others start to live their lives under the cloud of (even theoretically possible) NSA surveillance, will we see the strong response that is needed.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 07:51 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
You mean the part of history that says you ought not to spy on other countries????

Wake up!


The kind of history that show that US citizens had been sentence to up to twenty years in prison for writing opinions that the US government did not care for at the time and the hell with the constitution as we are at war.

Then of course government to government spying or spying on terrorist groups for that matter is not the same as massive spying on the US population as a whole and once more the hell with the US constitution as we are at "war" with terrorists.

Oh and the history of how congressmen and presidents had in fact been blackmail by the intelligence community/Hoover FBI in the past for that matter.

Hard to have a government that is anything other then a totalitarian state when the state intelligence community have the means to do large scale blackmailing of elected politicians.


Yeah...I can tell that you think it is a totalitarian police state.

And I am sure you would have said that same thing if you were in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was its boss. You would have said the same thing in the USSR during the time Stalin ruled.

Right?

People like you shout your disdain for the government knowing damn well you are not going to face any punishment for doing so. You put it out there day after day...week after week...month after month...with the full knowledge that you can do so freely.

Like I said...WAKE UP!
BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 08:14 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Yeah...I can tell that you think it is a totalitarian police state.


I think that the tools are being put into place to turn it into one and that there is no valid reason for those tools of mass spying on US citizens existing other then to set-up and support a totalitarian state.

Quote:
People like you shout your disdain for the government knowing damn well you are not going to face any punishment for doing so.


Oh such as the men in the past who found themselves sentence to ten/twenty years in prison for their writings and statements under the same form of government and courts and constitution we now have in place?

Can not happen here Frank even those it did in fact happen here in the past so I suggest getting a few history books and waking up yourself.

Next as far as my being sure I will not now be punish for exercising my legal rights I am not sure of any such thing.

US military vets and others US citizens with no criminal history and for no known reasons had been denial the right to board commerce airliners and the government is refusing to tell them the reasons so they can address the problem assuming there is any reason for those bans.

As I had already stated I am so unsure about the danger of the no fly list I had use technology means to block the government from tracing some of my research concerning terrorists websites even those I have a constitution rights to do such browsing.

You are the one sleeping not me.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 08:35 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Yeah...I can tell that you think it is a totalitarian police state.


I think that the tools are being put into place to turn it into one and that there is no valid reason for those tools of mass spying on US citizens existing other then to set-up and support a totalitarian state.


There are lots of super paranoid people running around loose. Don't feel bad.

But I notice that you are INCREDIBLY BRAVE to be willing to speak your mind as freely as you do considering how close to totalitarian we have become.

It must be quite a comfort to realize you are so very brave.

Quote:
Quote:
People like you shout your disdain for the government knowing damn well you are not going to face any punishment for doing so.


Oh such as the men in the past who found themselves sentence to ten/twenty years in prison for their writings and statements under the same form of government and courts and constitution we now have in place?


Just incredibly brave of you.



Quote:

Can not happen here Frank even those it did in fact happen here in the past so I suggest getting a few history books and waking up yourself.


You first.


Quote:
Next as far as my being sure I will not now be punish for exercising my legal rights I am not sure of any such thing.


Yeah...you speak out because you are incredibly brave.

Quote:
US military vets and others US citizens with no criminal history and for no known reasons had been denial the right to board commerce airliners and the government is refusing to tell them the reasons so they can address the problem assuming there is any reason for those bans.


They can find out why if they would only visit the grassy knoll. And then you've got all those abductions to worry about!

Quote:
As I had already stated I am so unsure about the danger of the no fly list I had use technology means to block the government from tracing some of my research concerning terrorists websites even those I have a constitution rights to do such browsing.

You are the one sleeping not me.



Put the tinfoil hat back on, Bill. You are in danger!
BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 08:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank not even trying to address the fact that US citizens had in fact been sentence to prisons for periods of ten to twenty years for expressing opinions that the government did not care for under the same form of government and constitution and courts that we now have in place?

Just stating that I am brave in your opinion?

Nor had you address the fact that the government is now claiming the right to stop citizens from flying on commerce airliners at their whim without any chance to have a open hearing on being ban or a reason given for the ban.

Suggesting it have something to do with the grassy knoll!!!!!!!!!

Come on Frank you can do better then that as all you doing now is making yourself look like a fool as there is no question that there are US citizens who are not allow to board airliners for no known reason and I could post a list of some of their names nor is there any question that men had in the past been sentence to prisons for decades for expressing their anti-government feelings.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 09:02 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Frank not even trying to address the fact that US citizens had in fact been sentence to prisons for periods of ten to twenty years for expressing opinions that the government did not care for under the same form of government and constitution and courts that we now have in place?


I have no idea of what kind of conspiracy plot your are talking here...and I am not especially interested in what the tinfoil brigade has to offer

Quote:
Just stating that I am brave in your opinion?


I think you are paranoid, Bill. PARANOID!

Quote:
Nor had you address the fact that the government is now claiming the right to stop citizens from flying on commerce airliners at their whim without any chance to have a open hearing on being ban or a reason given for the ban.


PARANOID!

Quote:
Suggesting it have something to do with the grassy knoll!!!!!!!!!


The grassy knoll is as good as anything else you are offering.

Quote:
Come on Frank you can do better then that as all you doing now is making yourself look like a fool as there is no question that there are US citizens who are not allow to board airliners for no known reason and I could post a list of some of their names nor is there any question that men had in the past been sentence to prisons for decades for expressing their anti-government feelings.


There certainly is a no-fly list...and probably there are names on it that may be there in error. If you are saying that the government is not perfect, I will agree. But what government is?

Wake the hell up!
BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 09:18 am
@Frank Apisa,
God you are strange that I am for some reason paranoid over the fact repeat the fact that citizens are being block from flying and the government will not tell them why or have a hearing about this ban? It is a fact and here are names of mainly US citizens that can not board a damn airliner!!!!!!

Quote:


https://www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-files-lawsuit-challenging-unconstitutional-no-fly-list

Ayman Latif, a U.S. citizen and disabled Marine veteran living in Egypt who has been barred from flying to the United States and, as a result, cannot take a required Veterans' Administration disability evaluation;

Raymond Earl Knaeble, a U.S. citizen and U.S. Army veteran who is stuck in Santa Marta, Colombia after being denied boarding on a flight to the United States;

Steven Washburn, a U.S. citizen and U.S. Air Force veteran who was prevented from flying from Europe to the United States or Mexico; he eventually flew to Brazil, from there to Peru, and from there to Mexico, where he was detained and finally escorted across the border by U.S. and Mexican officials;

Samir Mohamed Ahmed Mohamed, Abdullatif Muthanna, Nagib Ali Ghaleb and Saleh A. Omar, three American citizens and a lawful permanent resident of the United States who were prevented from flying home to the U.S. after visiting family members in Yemen;

Mohamed Sheikh Abdirahman Kariye, a U.S. citizen and resident of Portland, Oregon who was prevented from flying to visit his daughter who is in high school in Dubai;
Adama Bah, a citizen of Guinea who was granted political asylum in the United States, where she has lived since she was two, who was barred from flying from New York to Chicago for work; and

Halime Sat, a German citizen and lawful permanent resident of the United States who lives in California with her U.S.-citizen husband who was barred from flying from Long Beach, California to Oakland to attend a conference and has since had to cancel plane travel to participate in educational programs and her family reunion in Germany.


Nor have you even try to address the question that if in the past the government had placed men into prison for ten to twenty years for expressing their opinions with the same form of government and constitution why it can not happen in the future.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 09:56 am
@Frank Apisa,
Bill wrote: Come on Frank you can do better then that as all you doing now is making yourself look like a fool ... .

----------

Frank can't do better, Bill. He's always been a fool who constantly and repeatedly says foolish things.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 10:24 am
Allow me to repeat what I have said in the past:

Whether Edward Snowden is a dummy or not is NOT important to me. What is important to me...is that he get a fair trial. In order for that to happen, he will have to return to the US.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 10:39 am
@Frank Apisa,
The thing is Frank, those of us who live outside the USA do not share your confidence in American jurisprudence. O. J. Simpson, George Zimmerman, Michael Jackson etc. etc.

And to repeat what I said in the past, without specific whistle blower legislation, a fair trial would be an impossibility.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 10:48 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

The thing is Frank, those of us who live outside the USA do not share your confidence in American jurisprudence. O. J. Simpson, George Zimmerman, Michael Jackson etc. etc.


You mean you are afraid he will be found innocent despite the fact that you think he is guilty????

Quote:
And to repeat what I said in the past, without specific whistle blower legislation, a fair trial would be an impossibility.


Well...a fair trial might find him guilty of stealing classified documents and releasing them to unauthorized persons. You...and HE...both acknowledge there are no laws that allow for what he did.

Are you actually saying you don't want him to get a fair trial...you want him granted amnesty?
JTT
 
  -1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 11:07 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank: Well...a fair trial might find him guilty of stealing classified documents and releasing them to unauthorized persons. You...and HE...both acknowledge there are no laws that allow for what he did.
------------

Don't go on about a fair trial, frank, as that cannot occur in such a lawless land. You said it yourself - there are no laws to stop criminals in usa gov from
breaking the law. That's Nazi Germany. But you're fine with that.

"Granted amnesty"- what a ludicrous notion, perfect for a ludicrous nation. A guy who points out that his national government is nothing but a bunch of criminals should get amnesty. What a ******* Bizzaro world you and hundreds of millions of other like idiots live in!!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 12:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
We're starting to go around in circles. If the law is changed to offer specific protection to whistle blowers he will get a fair trial. Until that's the case he should stay away.

I've made no secret of the fact that I think he should be given an amnesty. He's not the one who should be on trial.

You claim it's a fair trial or an amnesty. I don't agree. He can't have a fair trial until the law is amended.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 01:55 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

We're starting to go around in circles.


We are indeed.
Quote:


If the law is changed to offer specific protection to whistle blowers he will get a fair trial. Until that's the case he should stay away.


A FAIR TRIAL right now...would occur with the laws the way they are.
We just disagree on that. There is no way, in my opinion, for the United States to allow disgruntled people to simply steal classified documents whenever they want...and then to claim immunity because of whistle blower laws. The government simply could not operate...NO GOVERNMENT could.

Quote:
I've made no secret of the fact that I think he should be given an amnesty.


Fine...that is your right. I, on the other hand, think the most dangerous thing that could be done...is to grant him amnesty. We would be destroying our country...which may not be the worst thing that could happen in your eyes.


Quote:
He's not the one who should be on trial.


Yes, Izzy...he is the one who should be on trial. He is the person charged with stealing classified documents.

Quote:
You claim it's a fair trial or an amnesty. I don't agree. He can't have a fair trial until the law is amended.


That is because you have already decided what verdict your want!

He can get a fair trial right now...with the laws that are currently operative.
JTT
 
  -1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 02:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank: We just disagree on that. There is no way, in my opinion, for the United States to allow disgruntled people to simply steal classified documents whenever they want...and then to claim immunity because of whistle blower laws. The government simply could not operate...NO GOVERNMENT could.

-------------

That's the same for gangsters, for the mafia, frank. They all rely on this same degree of criminality that describes the USA governments. Totalitarian and fascist governments too.

I guess what you are really trying to say is that this is how USA governments have operated since forever. Makes that constitution look pretty damn worthless, doesn't i?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 02:32 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Americans have become less sympathetic to Snowden as additional programs have been revealed. In June, a Post-ABC poll found the public split 43 to 48 percent over whether he should be charged. Opinions changed one month later, with 53 percent saying he should be charged, a finding that held steady in November at 52 percent.


Which, I suppose, means that 48% of Americans think the government could operate without Eddie being charged, as is obvious, and that the destruction of the country would not be the worst thing that could happen in their eyes.

Assuming Apisa's hysterical declarations have any validity.

Methinks he's a mite over-wrought.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 02:43 pm
@spendius,
Americans sympathy towards Snowden has nothing to do with our government performing illegal spying on its own citizens. Sympathy has nothing to do with this "legal" issue against our government.
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Feb, 2014 02:49 pm
@spendius,
If that poll is halfway accurate how can a jury convict Eddie unless it is stacked against him. In the federal system, whether the trial is criminal or civil, the jury must reach a unanimous verdict. How's that going to happen with the jury pool deadlocked at 50--50.

Why not give Eddie a fair trial in absentia? That would avoid pre-trial treatment of the style Bradley received which might have involved, besides what we know about, suggestibility chemicals and sleep coaching or even hypnosis which are all much more effective with the subject softened up with stress.
0 Replies
 
 

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