42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 07:30 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

I was thinking of when he got to Russia to represent him and basically be his spokesperson and it was that same Kremlin loyalist who convinced him not to seek asylum anywhere else.
How could he have done it without valid passport?
BillRM
 
  2  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 07:34 am
@revelette2,
Quote:
Kremlin loyalist who convinced him not to seek asylum anywhere else.


LOL the US got nations to force down the plane of a head of state so that the plane could be check for Snowden being on board.

There is no way he could reach any other nation that might or would offer him asylum.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  0  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 07:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I don't know, the article you left said, (I forget his name right off) that Kremlin guy convinced Snowden not to seek asylum anywhere else. One presumes the question arose.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 07:49 am
Actually it was an article I left, I just got the name of the lawyer from your post where the author wondered if Snowden was a prisoner in Russia.

Here is the article in which it talks about Kucherena and it was his suggestion that Snowden give up his appeals for political asylum in other countries.

Quote:
It was Mr. Kucherena who counseled Mr. Snowden to abandon his appeals for political asylum in more than 20 other countries, arguing that they had no legal standing while he remained on Russian soil. Instead he helped Mr. Snowden file the request for a form of temporary refuge here to avoid a drawn-out review that would ultimately end up on the desk of President Vladimir V. Putin


[source
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 07:54 am
@revelette2,
...and from the article, I'd quoted:
Quote:
He got stuck in Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport when his efforts to transit to a South American country such as Ecuador, Bolivia or Venezuela failed.
That would have left - besides asking Russia for asylum - either to stay in the airport's transit zone or to try to get somehow to a foreign embassy and get asylum there.

If he'd got asylum granted in some other country - how would it have been possible to get there? Especially, without being caught by the USA.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 08:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

...and from the article, I'd quoted:
Quote:
He got stuck in Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport when his efforts to transit to a South American country such as Ecuador, Bolivia or Venezuela failed.
That would have left - besides asking Russia for asylum - either to stay in the airport's transit zone or to try to get somehow to a foreign embassy and get asylum there.

If he'd got asylum granted in some other country - how would it have been possible to get there? Especially, without being caught by the USA.


As Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid learned, a good getaway is part of a well-planned undertaking that might be considered illegal.

The answer to the thread title seems more and more likely to be "yes" than "no." And if it is...that may throw the entire enterprise into a different light.



Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 08:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
DURING THE TIMES OF BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID, ASYLUM WASN'T REGULATED BY INTERNATIONAL TREATIES.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 08:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

DURING THE TIMES OF BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID, ASYLUM WASN'T REGULATED BY INTERNATIONAL TREATIES.


I have no idea of whether they were or not...but when Butch and the Kid were doing what they were doing...they usually planned where they wanted to go afterwards...and how best to get there.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 08:21 am
@Frank Apisa,
Snowden's US passport was revoked and thus he was forced to stay at the airport for over one month.
It certainly would have been easier, if it had been in 1900's USA and Snowden had been a member of the "Wild Bunch".
revelette2
 
  1  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 08:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Look, all I know is that it said, Kucherena, convinced him to give up attempts, so I suppose, logically, that he was still attempting to be granted asylum in those other 20 countries but just needed asylum in Russia to be able to get out of the Airport transit zone. As far how he could have managed it, I have no idea.

However, Kucherena thought it was a joke when Snowden reached out to him, considering his ties in Russian intelligence and all I guess. Of course Kucherena took him up on it, pro bono. It was a like a gift in his lap.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 08:48 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Snowden's US passport was revoked and thus he was forced to stay at the airport for over one month.
It certainly would have been easier, if it had been in 1900's USA and Snowden had been a member of the "Wild Bunch".


He should have considered that his passport might be revoked, Walter.

It would have been much easier if he had planned properly.

Considering the poor quality of his escape planning, it seems more likely that the answer to the subject question is "yes" rather than "no."

In any case, I still hope he get a fair trial...and an opportunity to clear his reputation.

JTT
 
  -1  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 09:07 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Speaking of hypocrites, MiT, there's you and this idiot, gab. He knows who butters his bread and as he describes totalitarian Russia so too he describes tha USA supposedly the land of the free. Ed S exposed USA criminals right up to Obama.

Why does the hypocrite fail to mention that?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 09:07 am
@Frank Apisa,
I'm not sure, if he really planned all and everything - at least, in my experience from working with many as social worker, most asylum seekers just take the first chance, without making big and detailed plans about the outcome.

I don't think, he has to clear his reputation since it's not a bad one ... for most outside the USA.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 09:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I'm not sure, if he really planned all and everything - at least, in my experience from working with many as social worker, most asylum seekers just take the first chance, without making big and detailed plans about the outcome.


Well...as I said, he should have thought things out as completely as Butch and the Kid...who had almost no schooling at all.

Quote:
I don't think, he has to clear his reputation since it's not a bad one ... for most outside the USA.


Oh...there are plenty of Americans who despise their country as much as some on the outside despise it, Walter.

In any case, no matter how people outside the USA think of him, I hope he gets the opportunity for a fair trial...so there can be no question about whether there is, in fact, a defense for what he is charged with doing.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 09:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
In any case, I still hope he get a fair trial...and an opportunity to clear his reputation.


All charges should be drop and as a matter of fact no charges should had been file in the first place as in the case of Daniel Ellsberg and the pentagon papers.

Government employees and government departments should not be allow to hide their misdeeds from the American public by using a secret stamp with special note of when it involved unconstitutional behaviors.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 09:49 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
In any case, I still hope he get a fair trial...and an opportunity to clear his reputation.


All charges should be drop and as a matter of fact no charges should had been file in the first place as in the case of Daniel Ellsberg and the pentagon papers.


Why don't you tell us about your law degree...and where it was obtained, Bill. And if you do not have one...what makes you qualified to tell us what should or should not happen with the charges?



Quote:
Government employees and government departments should not be allow to hide their misdeeds from the American public by using a secret stamp with special note of when it involved unconstitutional behaviors.


YOU do not get to decide what is or is not a "misdeed" or what is or is not "unconstitutional behavior", Bill...nor is Edward Snowden.

But Edward Snowden can complete his battle...by standing trial and showing that what he did is justifiable...and therefor not illegal.

That is what I want for him...a chance to show in a court of law that what he did is actually justifiable.

Why don't you?
Olivier5
 
  3  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 09:52 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
YOU do not get to decide what is or is not a "misdeed" or what is or is not "unconstitutional behavior", Bill...nor is Edward Snowden.

Bill is still entitled to his oppinion, unless I missed the coup d'état...
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 09:57 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
YOU do not get to decide what is or is not a "misdeed" or what is or is not "unconstitutional behavior", Bill...nor is Edward Snowden.

Bill is still entitled to his oppinion, unless I missed the coup d'état...


I have no problem with him offering an opinion, Olivier.

But didn't give an opinion.

He offered a conclusion...he offered a legal conclusion.

So I am asking for his qualifications.

BillRM
 
  2  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 10:09 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Bill is still entitled to his oppinion, unless I missed the coup d'état...


With secret courts and secret means of getting on such lists as do not fly it might be only a matter of time that wrong opinions will get a late night visit from government agents.

Hell it was only a long ago as WW1 that people in numbers was arrested and jail for the expression of anti-war opinions in public under the Sedition Act

Oh and the Sedition Act was part of the Espionage Act the same law that Snowden is now being charge under.

Once the government declaring we are at war and our freedoms are hanging by a thin thread.

Quote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918

The Espionage Act of 1917 made it a crime to interfere with the war effort or with military recruitment or to attempt to aid a nation at war with the U.S. Wartime violence on the part of local groups of citizens, sometimes mobs or vigilantes, persuaded some lawmakers that the law was inadequate. In their view the country was witnessing instances of public disorder that represented the public's own attempt to punish unpopular speech in light of the government's inability to do so. Amendments to enhance the government's authority under the Espionage Act would prevent mobs from doing what the government could not.[7]

Enactment[edit]

While much of the debate focused on the law's precise language, there was considerable opposition in the Senate, almost entirely from Republicans like Henry Cabot Lodge and Hiram Johnson, the former speaking in defense of free speech and the latter assailing the administration for failing to use the laws already in place.[8] Former president Theodore Roosevelt voiced opposition as well.[9] President Wilson and his Attorney General Thomas Watt Gregory viewed the bill as a political compromise. They hoped to avoid hearings that would embarrass the administration for its failure to prosecute offensive speech. They also feared other proposals that would have withdrawn prosecutorial authority from the Justice Department and placed it in the War Department, creating a sort of civilian court-martial process of questionable constitutionality.[10] The final vote for passage was 48 to 26 in the Senate[8] and 293 to 1 in the House of Representatives,[11] with the sole dissenting vote in the House cast by Meyer London of New York.[12]

Officials in the Justice Department who had little enthusiasm for the law nevertheless hoped that even without generating many prosecutions it would help quiet public calls for more government action against those thought to be insufficiently patriotic.[13]

Enforcement[edit]

Most U.S. newspapers "showed no antipathy toward the act" and "far from opposing the measure, the leading papers seemed actually to lead the movement in behalf of its speedy enactment."[14]

The legislation came so late in the war, just a few months before Armistice Day, that prosecutions under the provisions of the Sedition Act were few.[13] One notable case was that of Mollie Steimer, convicted under the Espionage Act as amended by the Sedition Act.[15] U.S. Attorneys at first had considerable discretion in using these laws, until Gregory, a few weeks before the end of the war, instructed them not to act without his approval. Enforcement varied greatly from one jurisdiction to the next, with most activity in the Western states where the Industrial Workers of the World labor union was prevalent.[16] For example, Marie Equi was arrested for giving a speech at the IWW hall in Portland, Oregon, and was convicted after the war was over.[17]

In April 1918, the government arrested industrialist William Edenborn, a naturalized citizen from Germany, at his railroad business in New Orleans, Louisiana. He was accused of speaking "disloyally" when he allegedly belittled the threat of Germany to the security of the United States.[18]

In June 1918, the Socialist Party figure Eugene V. Debs of Indiana was arrested for violating the Sedition Act by undermining the government's conscription efforts. He was sentenced to ten years in prison. He served his sentence in the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary from April 13, 1919, until December 1921, when President Harding commuted Debs' sentence to time served, effective on December 25, Christmas Day.[19] In March 1919, President Wilson, at the suggestion of Attorney General Thomas Watt Gregory, released or reduced the sentences of some two hundred prisoners convicted under the Espionage Act or the Sedition Act.[20]

With the act rendered inoperative by the end of hostilities, Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer waged a public campaign, not unrelated to his own campaign for the Democratic nomination for president, in favor of a peacetime version of the Sedition Act.[21] He sent a circular outlining his rationale to newspaper editors in January 1919, citing the dangerous foreign-language press and radical attempts to create unrest in African American communities.[22] He testified in favor of such a law in early June 1920. At one point Congress had more than 70 versions of proposed language and amendments for such a bill,[23] but it took no action on the controversial proposal during the campaign year of 1920.[24] After a court decision later in June cited Palmer's anti-radical campaign for its abuse of power, the conservative Christian Science Monitor found itself unable to support him any more, writing on June 25, 1920: "What appeared to be an excess of radicalism...was certainly met with...an excess of suppression."[25] The Alien Registration Act of 1940 was the first American peacetime sedition
a
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Sat 8 Feb, 2014 10:15 am
@Frank Apisa,
Do not worry Frank as all congress need to do is re-pass a Sedition Act and then declare we are indeed in a war on terror and no one will be allow to disagree with your positions unless they are willing to face ten years in prison for doing so.
0 Replies
 
 

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