Snowdon is a dummy

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Yeah...great idea. We ought to try "regulating" earthquakes and hurricanes that way also!

We don't do that. But since we have got a constitution and laws, I think that they should be observed.

And, honestly, there are quite a few - private persons, companies and even governmental institutions/agencies, who got fined disgarding them.

I know, it doesn't prevent spying. But rape, murder, speeding, drink-driving happens as well though it's against the law(s).
And governments try to make unconstitutional laws - but we've got constitutional courts as "remedy".

1 Reply

@JPB,

Quote:

PLEASE don't turn this into a rape thread!!!

That's like asking people not to turn a thread about wasps into a thread about strawberry jam because a poster mentioned wasps getting their little legs stuck in some.

Although I have often seen things like that happen on A2K. In fact a version of it is obvious on this thread when the constitutional issue is drowned out by hounding the computer wizard in order to avoid facing up to it as is also the red herring about spying on other countries.

Ignoring my posts is another way of avoiding the main issue. Without the main issue I don't think there is anything to debate.

All that is necessary is to repeal a couple of amendments.

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@JPB,

JPB wrote:

No, rev, he can't argue that. It's not a legal defense in this country. There would be two hurdles to that defense. The first hurdle would be to convince a judge that that testimony be allowed to be given. The second hurdle would be to allow the jury to consider the testimony in their deliberations.

Actually, those are hurdles only after the hurdle of getting a trial when the DOJ has publicly stated that they will only allow him back into the country in exchange for a guilty plea -- no trial.

Actually, JPB....that doesn't really characterize everything that went into that particular discussion.

The DOJ (Holder, actually) was responding to someone quoting Snowden that he had NO DEFENSE...because the law protecting whistle blowers did not extend to defense contractors.

Snowden was acknowledging that he has no defense...which is essentially saying he was guilty...and that he had no way of coming back to the US without having to stand trial without a reasonable defense.

Holder said that a grant of immunity or clemency was NOT in the cards...and that if he wanted to come back...he certainly could do so by pleading guilty.

If Snowden wanted to return and plead not guilty, he could...and probably would get a tremendous defense team. But they would be working with the fact that apparently Snowden did do what he is charged with doing...and there is no valid defense.

Snowden wants clemency...which I doubt will ever be granted.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Yeah...great idea. We ought to try "regulating" earthquakes and hurricanes that way also!

We don't do that. But since we have got a constitution and laws, I think that they should be observed.

And, honestly, there are quite a few - private persons, companies and even governmental institutions/agencies, who got fined disgarding them.

I know, it doesn't prevent spying. But rape, murder, speeding, drink-driving happens as well though it's against the law(s).
And governments try to make unconstitutional laws - but we've got constitutional courts as "remedy".

I understand your consternation, Walter...and I felt some of it when Israel was discovered spying on us.

But I got over it...and came to understand that friends sometimes spy on friends...and that the "sometime" is really often.

In any case, this thread is about Snowden...and I see it...

...no government in this country will ever grant clemency to Snowden...

...and if any administration ever did, we might just as well change the Stars and Stripes to a White Flag...and wave it mightily.

No government can tolerate what Snowden did...no matter what.

He must stand trial...and if he can beat the rap, so be it.

MY GUESS: Even if he could, he would have to seek asylum somewhere, because he'd be walking around with a bulls-eye on his back.

This was his choice.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

In any case, this thread is about Snowden...

Indeed. And he if he hadn't done what he thought, he had to do - we wouldn't know all this.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
In any case, this thread is about Snowden...

Indeed. And he if he hadn't done what he thought, he had to do - we wouldn't know all this.

Yeah...Timothy Mc Veigh thought that same kind of thing. So did Adolph Hitler.

In any case...he did what he thinks is right.

But he must stand trial for it.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Yeah...Timothy Mc Veigh thought that same kind of thing. So did Adolph Hitler.

To exactly what "stolen" documents resp. "whistleblowing" of both are you referring here?

1 Reply

In the wake of revelations the NSA spied on foreign officials, the State Department’s top official for Europe has been caught on tape planning a deal to end the Ukraine crisis and she had a message for her European counterparts – “**** the EU.” More here

I think that the person, who posted this on YouTube, should get a fair trial!

But might be Swoden did it?

Quote:

At Thursday's State Department press briefing, Spokeswoman Jen Psaki said: "Certainly we think this is a new low in Russian tradecraft in terms of publicizing and posting this...

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Yeah...Timothy Mc Veigh thought that same kind of thing. So did Adolph Hitler.

To exactly what "stolen" documents resp. "whistleblowing" of both are you referring here?

Remember your words...

And he if he hadn't done what he thought, he had to do -

A bit garbled, but you were indicating that Snowden did what the thought had to be done!

That is what the two gentlemen I mentioned also thought...that there were things they had to do.

We could argue this from now 'til whenever, Walter...

...but even the most ardent Snowden supporter has to see that the United States MUST prosecute Snowden on these charges...or the nation simply has go out of business.

Apparently many people here would love to see that happen...for the US to cease to exist.

I am not one of those people.

Snowden must be tried...and if he can mount a defense that persuades a jury to exonerate him...

...so be it.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

In the wake of revelations the NSA spied on foreign officials, the State Department’s top official for Europe has been caught on tape planning a deal to end the Ukraine crisis and she had a message for her European counterparts – “**** the EU.” More here

I think that the person, who posted this on YouTube, should get a fair trial!

On what charge?

Quote:

But might be Swoden did it?

Who is Swoden?

Quote:

Quote:
At Thursday's State Department press briefing, Spokeswoman Jen Psaki said: "Certainly we think this is a new low in Russian tradecraft in terms of publicizing and posting this...

Psaki and whoever else constitutes the "we"...are certainly entitled to that opinion.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

At least, Nuland spoke today with European Union officials to smooth again over some more ruffled feathers. Wink

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
But might be Swoden did it?

Who is Swoden?

Not that GeorgeOB left A2K for this (he's the one, who always referred to it), but I'm better than you in nitpicking, Frank.
I'm not going back now, but any of your future typos will be commentated.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

No government can tolerate what Snowden did...no matter what.

The word "government" needs a definition.

Quote:

...and if any administration ever did, we might just as well change the Stars and Stripes to a White Flag...and wave it mightily.

If an administration came to office that held that stomping all over its own people's constitutional rights is contemptible it could fly its flag from the rooftops and say with pride that it is truly the leader of the free world. (Notice the shift from government to administation--a common rhetorical trick).

There are Snowdenards just as there were Dreyfusards. A fanatical Dreyfusard became Prime Minister of France during the latter half of WW1.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

At least, Nuland spoke today with European Union officials to smooth again over some more ruffled feathers.

I would hope that the good will of the people of the US for the people of Europe...and the good will of the people of Europe for the people of he US...

...stays strong, Walter.

These ruts in the road are ugly and damaging and have to be repaved...but the road is a good road.

We'll stay friends and allies.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
But might be Swoden did it?

Who is Swoden?

Not that GeorgeOB left A2K for this (he's the one, who always referred to it), but I'm better than you in nitpicking, Frank.
I'm not going back now, but any of your future typos will be commentated.

I was just busting your balls, Walter.

But I will be awaiting your commentatedation.

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@Frank Apisa,

Now Apisa is envisaging the USA going out of business. I think that's what he meant--it was a bit garbled.

He has got his panties tangled over this minor glitch hasn't he just? He must think Kerry would be pussy-footing around Europe prattling on about wanting this put behind us in an appropriate manner if the US was in the slightest danger of going out of business.

Which I thought translated as not wanting Snowden back and especially if he was to be given a fair trial shown on TV.

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@spendius,

Quote:

If an administration came to office that held that stomping all over its own people's constitutional rights is contemptible it could fly its flag from the rooftops and say with pride that it is truly the leader of the free world.

A bit late for that. Any presidential candidate who would campaign to repel the NSA, would find his or her quirks, sins and secret loves quickly and quietly exposed in the media, and will then have to withdraw from the race and apologize publicly to his/her spouse and to all Americans, in the fashion of old soviet politburo members victims of Stalin's purges and publicly apologizing for being valets of capitalism....

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

That hadn't occurred to me yet (ai, chihuahua!)

I hope you're wrong on that. But fear is a great impediment.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

A bit late for that. Any presidential candidate who would campaign to repel the NSA, would find his or her quirks, sins and secret loves quickly and quietly exposed in the media, and will then have to withdraw from the race and apologize publicly to his/her spouse and to all Americans, in the fashion of old soviet politburo members victims of Stalin's purges and publicly apologizing for being valets of capitalism....

Which means that the Constitution is only valuable as a museum piece and that all talk to the contrary is deluded and strictly for the gumps. Which is more or less my view I must admit.

People ought to remember that the American blood boils at an unusually low temperature.

Sin and sex at the centre of things eh? Whodathowtit? Tell farmerman.

Where's O'Reilly on the Cost of Freedom?

The most obvious targets of that sort of surveillance, stored on tapes, are the movers and shakers and if they have been doing very naughtly things, which you are assuming they have, understandably, they might be persuaded to get up a 2/3rds majority to repel the NSA.

Eddie's problem, one I don't have, is that his principles got the better of him. The guy who immolated himself in Tunis started the unrest in the middle-east. And Jan Palach might be said to have brought down the Berlin Wall. Of course both could have happened had those guys not done what they did.

2 Replies

@spendius,

It goes way beyond what you describe. I've opined about how the GOP tries to control women's bodies, restrict our citizen's voting rights, and they'd rather spend money on policing the world over helping our own citizens.

Obama has gone beyond those controls; they now control our communication and freedom of thought.

My decision not to vote in future national elections was the correct one; our own government, chosen by the American People, are the very people destroying our country.

There's nothing more we can do as citizens. We have found the enemy, and ...

TNCFS

2 Replies

Snowdon is a dummy

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