Snowdon is a dummy

@Frank Apisa,

So now you have it clear and concise.

A choice between mayhem and a police state. The Constitution being of no account having been designed to prevent either.

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@BillRM,

The real Big Chill.

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@revelette2,

Quote:

And yes he has a choice, come back to face the consequences of his actions.

Eddie is irrelevant now revel. His only use is to distract attention from the issue. The rapist is irrelevant to the fact of having been raped.

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@BillRM,

And so it starts... First you're afraid of doibg a web search, then of writing something subversive, and little by little you live in Brazil.

No, not actual Brazil, THIS Brazil:

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@cicerone imposter,

Trade dosent mean friends. Sometime it means just the opposite.

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@RABEL222,

What is there beyond trade that maintains a relationship between countries?

It's a world economy. Competition is healthy.

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@Frank Apisa,

Some lawmakers from Social-Democratic Party (the minor partner in the federal coalition government) now demand that we should start with spying in the USA as well ...

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Some lawmakers from Social-Democratic Party (the minor partner in the federal coalition government) now demand that we should start with spying in the USA as well ...

Ahhh...you mean the lawmakers who think you already aren't!

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Ahhh...you mean the lawmakers who think you already aren't!

Certainly our secret service might have fooled the relevant parliamentary committee. And certainly it can be so that US haven't noticed until now that they are spied on.

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@spendius,

Quote:

This case involves a nation turning on itself. Officially.

Yes.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Ahhh...you mean the lawmakers who think you already aren't!

Certainly our secret service might have fooled the relevant parliamentary committee. And certainly it can be so that US haven't noticed until now that they are spied on.

Any government officials who are astonished by spying...are simply too naive for the jobs.

Spying happens between countries.

When spyglasses were invented...everyone had to realize that spies were going to use them.

When radar, sonar, encryption and decryption devises were built...everyone had to realize that spies were going to use them.

With our technological advancement...spying on electronic apparatus has become for widespread. It is going to include supposed enemies, allies, and citizens.

There almost certainly will come a day where all the fuss being made right now will be thought of as laughable.

But in so far as it provides grist for the mills of people whose life is dedicated to finding fault with government...I guess there is value for them. Keeps them busy, so to speak.

Personally, I think most of this griping and faulting...is what sailors used to call "pissing into the wind."

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@Frank Apisa,

I have no doubts (and I can't imagine that someone else has them) that Germany is "spying" in many countries, including the USA. And in the latter perhaps really beyond their "official limits".

I do sincerely doubt, however, that they spy on presidential mobile phones or those of other leading politicians.

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@cicerone imposter,

You regularly use Ad Hominem attacks in place of explaining what you mean as a cheap way out of having to reason out your positions.

Quote:

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1.Person A makes claim X.
2.Person B makes an attack on person A.
3.Therefore A's claim is false.

source

When Snowden took the action he took, he knew it was against the law. If you commit a crime, no matter how you might think it justifiable, you should be prepared to face the consequences of your actions rather than running away and hiding behind another country.
.
I imagine if Snowden finally does face his actions and stands trial in the US, groups and firms will lining up to represent him, such as the NAACP or other civil rights organizations. He could argue it was justifiable. I don't think he would win, but he has a shot at it.

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@spendius,

Only someone who has never been raped or has known someone who has been raped or someone a little insensitive could say the rapist is irrelevant to the rape. The rapist has to pay for his actions. Besides, I don't think this comparison does your side of the debate much good.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I have no doubts (and I can't imagine that someone else has them) that Germany is "spying" in many countries, including the USA. And in the latter perhaps really beyond their "official limits".

I do sincerely doubt, however, that they spy on presidential mobile phones or those of other leading politicians.

That may well be, Walter. Perhaps that is because they do not have the technological ability to do it...

...or because they simply have no reason to do it that makes the effort worth the danger of exposure.

MAYBE...(I certainly do not know)...there was a reason for tapping the phone of the Chancellors mentioned. Maybe there were suspicions that we do not know about...and which are not about to be revealed...that warranted what was a very dangerous undertaking.

I do not know...but I am willing to give the intelligence agencies that latitude. I recognize that others are not willing...and see it as an unacceptable intrusion...but my counter argument would be...this is probably just the tip of the iceberg of what is to come...as surveillance techniques get more and more sophisticated.

That was the point of my comments about spyglasses and decryption devises.

Privacy...as we know it today (or yesterday)...may be as dead as regular travel by horse...or the bow and arrow!

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Privacy...as we know it today (or yesterday)...may be as dead as regular travel by horse...or the bow and arrow!

Perhaps. And therefore privacy is regulated by laws.
(German) Laws, which were knowingly broken by the US doing such on German soil.

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@revelette2,

No, rev, he can't argue that. It's not a legal defense in this country. There would be two hurdles to that defense. The first hurdle would be to convince a judge that that testimony be allowed to be given. The second hurdle would be to allow the jury to consider the testimony in their deliberations.

Actually, those are hurdles only after the hurdle of getting a trial when the DOJ has publicly stated that they will only allow him back into the country in exchange for a guilty plea -- no trial.

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@revelette2,

PLEASE don't turn this into a rape thread!!!

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Privacy...as we know it today (or yesterday)...may be as dead as regular travel by horse...or the bow and arrow!

Perhaps. And therefore privacy is regulated by laws.

Yeah...great idea. We ought to try "regulating" earthquakes and hurricanes that way also!

C'mon, Walter.

Quote:

(German) Laws, which were knowingly broken by the US doing such on German soil.

Okay...then bring the United States up on charges.

Don't you see how that does not work?

Spying definitely happened.

BEST GUESS: It is going on right now probably not significantly changed from before all the revelations.

It will go on tomorrow...and the day after that.

And we Americans are almost certainly not the only ones doing it.

The indignation is charming...but grossly overdone.

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@revelette2,

I didn't say the rapist is irrelevant revel.

I drew the comparison with Eddie to point out the relative insignificance of the actor in an action which cannot be undone and which has important consequences. Revenge might be sweet but it's also futile. Whether it deters other whistleblowers I don't know. I doubt it.

Most people feel disconsolate about being spied upon. I would say that finding out it has been routinely happening reduces morale. Increases paranoia. Alters behaviour. Abridges free speech.

My side of the debate, as you call it, would say that the other side of the debate are asking us to accept that the Constitution is actually a pile of old, moldy ****. And in doing so are asking us to laugh at all the many manifestations of rhetorical devices intended to inculcate a worship of the Constitution and which seem to have worked very effectively in Eddie's case as well as in the NRA leadership. One would laugh at anybody trying to make a pile of moldy, old **** look sanctified.

Once the Constitution becomes a joke then all those speaking in its name do so also. It is a religious document and picking and choosing which of its precepts to obey and which not is heretical. The usual route for heresy.

An all round pisser in other words.

And all caused by the NSA and its craving for more funds. And if it expected to be not exposed it must be run by fools.

Eddie had worked for the C.I.A.

Apisa is in the deck-chair attendant category.

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Snowdon is a dummy

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