42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 09:11 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
JPB has answered that so there's no need for me to.
ditto
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 09:43 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
You all have said the end does not justify the mean,


Nonsense there are all kinds of situations where breaking the law is completely justify.


Right. Rioters often claim that.

Quote:
An the ends does justify the means with special note of when the government is acting in an immortal manner and in this case a unconstitutional manner also.


And Edward Snowden was elected by whom to make that decision? Were you elected to make that decision?

SCOTUS makes that decision...and all Snowden has to do is allow the legal process to take place...to clear his good name.

Quote:
Let see stealing the property of someone else and moving it in secret across state lines was a completely moral act when the property happen to be black.
slaves for example. In the same manner as using force to stop slave catchers from returning that property to the south is also a completely moral act even after the SC had declare it an illegal action.


I'll try to put out of my mind that you suggest that what Snowden did resembles in any way work done to end slavery.




Quote:
In my opinion, Frank and some others would had make ideal Germans in the 1930s obeying the state no matter how immoral the state actions happen to be.


Yeah, I can see that you would. But that is because you seem to think things through about an atom deep.

Quote:
Snowden is a hero in the same class as those who ran the underground railroad breaking state and federal laws when they was doing so.


Fine. You are entitled to think so.

Now...let's get him back so he can stand trial and clear his name...

...THEN we hold the ticker tape parade.

Quote:
The government had no moral right to hid their misdeeds from the american people using a secret stamp nor do they have any moral right to punish those who reveal those misdeeds.


You do not determine if the government is doing "misdeeds", Bill. Try to finally get that through your skull.
spendius
 
  2  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 09:57 am
@BillRM,
Bill--why do you think people come on Able 2 Know to argue for us not being abled to know?

It seems a bit odd to me.

We need to have the widest possible sources of information to enable a democracy to function and so it is reasonable to presume that those people are anti-democratic, anti-Constitution and anti-American.

Apisa is using a high-value word, "fair", and associating it with totalitarianism.
spendius
 
  4  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 10:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And Edward Snowden was elected by whom to make that decision?


Those who conditioned him to value the Constitution and democracy were elected.

What Eddie has shown is that the rest of the NSA's staff have not been conditioned to value those things as efficiently as he has been and are prepared to set them aside, despite their words, for a good salary and a cushy job with numerous perks.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 10:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Right. Rioters often claim that.


An so did civil right workers in the south who sat down at lunch counters and refused to move!!!!!!!!

Quote:
And Edward Snowden was elected by whom to make that decision? Were you elected to make that decision?


No one elected the brave men and women who ran the underground railroad in the southern US in the 1830-1850 and no one elected the men and women who did their best to save Jews in Germany for that matter in the 1930s.

It was the completely legal and elected governments with popular support that those people was acting against both in Germany and the South.

Being elected does not mean that you are given license to act in an immoral manner and not being elected does not foreclosed you from taking moral actions that those in power does not care for.

Quote:
Now...let's get him back so he can stand trial and clear his name...


Yes indeed like the men and women running the underground railroad should have turn themselves in to be tried by the legal courts of the southern states or those who hid the Jews should had turn themselves in to the legal courts of the German nation in the 1930s in order to clear their names!!!!!!!

Sorry I do not see how Snowden is under any obligation to turn himself into the legal system of the US that at the moment as far as this issue is concern is not working any better then the legal systems of the southern states in the 1830-50s.

Quote:
You do not determine if the government is doing "misdeeds", Bill. Try to finally get that through your skull.


We all have that duty but as I said I am sure you would had felt that you have no right to question the Jews being put into death camps either.
BillRM
 
  2  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 10:24 am
@spendius,
Quote:
We need to have the widest possible sources of information to enable a democracy to function and so it is reasonable to presume that those people are anti-democratic, anti-Constitution and anti-American.


Of course you can not have a free society and a democracy when information can routinely be hidden from the people.

There is little consent of the governed when the governed is kept in the dark about the actions of their own government.
JTT
 
  -1  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 10:32 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank: Right. Rioters often claim that.

That's exactly what the colonialists were, Frank, a bunch of rioters. Then someone figured, "Hey we gotta invent some high sounding talk to cover what are essentially terrorist actions and crimes".

Setting off two centuries plus of way worse crimes and unrelenting terrorism by one criminal USA government after another.

And Frank, new jersey's top editorial guy dithers on and on.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 10:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank: You do not determine if the government is doing "misdeeds", Bill. Try to finally get that through your skull.

Frank: baaaaaaa baaaaaaaaa

... government of the sheeple by the sheeple for the sheeple.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  4  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 10:36 am
@BillRM,
It's ironic really Bill. A bloke who was most efficiently conditioned as a young person to value the Constitution, democracy and the American way of life is a fugitive from the justice of those in whom such conditioning was obviously less effective.

Apisa has not yet defined "fair". He has not been elected to decide what that very large word means.

I hadn't felt it fair to allude to the slavish followers of orders who you mentioned.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 10:40 am
@BillRM,
BillRM: We all have that duty but as I said I am sure you would had felt that you have no right to question the Jews being put into death camps either.

"We all have that duty" do we Bill? The USA has organized many a death camp and y'all are mostly silent.

What gives?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 11:12 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Right. Rioters often claim that.


An so did civil right workers in the south who sat down at lunch counters and refused to move!!!!!!!!


Yup...and so did rioters in LA after a verdict they didn't like in the 1990's.


Quote:
Quote:
And Edward Snowden was elected by whom to make that decision? Were you elected to make that decision?


No one elected the brave men and women who ran the underground railroad in the southern US in the 1830-1850 and no one elected the men and women who did their best to save Jews in Germany for that matter in the 1930s.


Who elected Edward Snowden to determine what is allowable by government...and what is not?

What you are advocating, although you appear unable to comprehend it, is chaos and anarchy...with each individual making decisions at his/her own caprice.

Quote:
It was the completely legal and elected governments with popular support that those people was acting against both in Germany and the South.


And????

Quote:
Being elected does not mean that you are given license to act in an immoral manner and not being elected does not foreclosed you from taking moral actions that those in power does not care for.


Who elected you arbiter of what is immoral? Who elected Edward Snowden?

Quote:
Quote:
Now...let's get him back so he can stand trial and clear his name...


Yes indeed like the men and women running the underground railroad should have turn themselves in to be tried by the legal courts of the southern states or those who hid the Jews should had turn themselves in to the legal courts of the German nation in the 1930s in order to clear their names!!!!!!!


Nope. I just want him now...in this day and age...to stand trial and clear his name...if he can.

Quote:
Sorry I do not see how Snowden is under any obligation to turn himself into the legal system of the US that at the moment as far as this issue is concern is not working any better then the legal systems of the southern states in the 1830-50s.


I don't either. And he can stay in Russia for the rest of his life if he chooses. But if he wants to clear his name...it appears the place to do it is here in the US.

Quote:
Quote:
You do not determine if the government is doing "misdeeds", Bill. Try to finally get that through your skull.


We all have that duty but as I said I am sure you would had felt that you have no right to question the Jews being put into death camps either.


I guess the only thing you can do is to try to get off the subject of Edward Snowden...and my desire to see that he gets a fair trial on the charges that have been levied against him.

spendius
 
  4  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 11:18 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Who elected Edward Snowden to determine what is allowable by government...and what is not?


That has been answered. Apisa claimed that he read all posts on the thread and it is self-evident that he has not read the answer. Which is handy for him because he has no rebuttal.

I have not ruled out that Apisa is trying to make Eddie's pursuers look ridiculous. He is certainly doing so.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 11:36 am
@spendius,
Wishy-washy Frank sticks with his own perception of what's right and wrong; he just doesn't understand what the US Constitution is all about - nor world history of how tyrants took over governments.

He persists that he's right about giving Snowden a fair trial, but fails to understand the reality that our legal system is not always right. He also fails to understand the simple concept of "conflict of interest."

We just haven't seen those people who have broken the laws against our Constitution charged with any crime. That's part and parcel of "conflict of interest."

Frank is not able to understand simple concepts, because he guesses most of the time - even about the definition of "know."

Quote:
Definition of know (v)
Bing Dictionary
know[ nō ]
hold information in mind: to have information firmly in the mind or committed to memory
be certain about something: to believe firmly in the truth or certainty of something
realize something: to be or become aware of something


If he has differing definition for the word 'know' how is anyone to understand what he's trying to say?

Any one?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 01:24 pm
POOR CI...

...he is still trying to pretend he is IGNORING me...when in fact, he can't get enough of me.

Reacts to everything I write...and has to pretend he is reacting to what others write about me.

He is a fraud...a farcical fraud.

Anyway...I am sure I understand our Constitution at least as decently as he does. And our Constitution does not provide for individuals deciding for themselves what laws they will obey...and which they will not.

The regular and constantly indignant gripers...of which ci is one...hate our government and the way it operates. So naturally, they have to consider Snowden a HERO for stealing classified documents and releasing them to unauthorized persons.

There are others, by the way, who consider Snowden a traitor.

I do not consider him a traitor...and I most assuredly do not consider him a hero. I am content to do what the Constitution provides in these kinds of cases...to guarantee him a quick trial by his peers.

ci doesn't want that for his hero.

ci is the one who has trouble...serious trouble understanding the Constitution.

That doesn't make ci a bad guy. But it does make him a fraud.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 02:00 pm
Former German chancellor Schröder was spied on by NSA as well (I'm glad that Merkel doesn't have a sole claim on this privilege)

Schröder's mobile phone has been the number 388 on the National Sigint Requirement List ... because of his strong opposition to the Iraq war.
An insider is quoted with "We had reasons to assume that Schröder wouldn't contribute to the success of the alliance." (Sources: report in the daily newspaper "Süddeutsche Zeitung", report by the public broadcaster NDR (North German Radio), report in Spiegel.)

Photo in the Süddeutsche Zeitung with that report :
http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps57c12908.jpg
JPB
 
  3  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 02:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Mr B and I watched, "The Lives of Others" (German with English subtitles) about the Stasi gov't and how a socialist ideologue becomes convinced that his East German communist gov't is corrupt. Lots of similarities in the theme with the current Snowden/libertarian perspective.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 02:22 pm
@JPB,
I know. And I've acquaintances, who were ... on both sides.
And friends of my late parents were in similar positions ... during the Nazi-period.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 02:25 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Former German chancellor Schröder was spied on by NSA as well (I'm glad that Merkel doesn't have a sole claim on this privilege)
According to the above quoted reports, not Merkel was spied on since 2002 - as it had been said before - but any German chancellor. (So Schröder first, than Merkel.)

Screenshot from our main national news
http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps6ee64377.jpg

According to that, not only the chancellors' mobiles were spied on but "all government communication" (= written and spoken words) were targets.

Sources are obviously newest Snowden documents ...
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  6  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 02:58 pm
@JPB,
The Stasi was a bit old-fashioned JP compared to the techniques now.

And anyway, everybody knew it was operating.

In the case here it is the issue of the public being informed of something it didn't know was operating that is the crux of the matter. With the "something" being a matter close to the heart of millions of Americans who have been conditioned in the same way Eddie was.

No secrets have been revealed except the one that Americans were being routinely spied upon behind their backs and all paid for by their own money.

Thus it is the gross error of Americans being spied upon without their knowledge and with tens of thousands of Americans being eager parties to it which was therefore bound to eventually be exposed unless the NSA only employed people who thought the Constitution was a pile of old ****.

Hubris. And that expands to fill any amount of space if unchecked. The nervous bank robber becomes, after a number of successful efforts, cocky.

And this very elementary error has resulted in our enemies now knowing how we spy on them. Very good. The error has blown the secret. Eddie was only the first to have the guts to test his love of the American way of life. Had he not been another would have emerged. Eddie's of no account. Love of the American way of life pulled the trigger and the silly buggers pursuing the lad are the very same ones that made enormous efforts to inculcate that love and still do.

There were no loyalty parades every morning at the school I went to. No flags and nobody wailing patriotic ditties. That's because we all know we are a load of wankers living in a dump. All the priests were hungover at that time of day.

Apisa is making the arrogant assumption that the inculcation of a love of America produces the same effect on everybody as it did on him.







cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 4 Feb, 2014 03:07 pm
@spendius,
Very good post, spendi.
 

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