41
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:13 am
@cicerone imposter,
Microsoft is fighting our government.
Quote:
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Of all the sexy growth stories vying for attention in the tech sector, none is as boldly opportunistic as Microsoft’s (MSFT) new effort to tap into growing global outrage over spying by the National Security Agency.

In an unprecedented move, Microsoft is now offering its customers abroad to choose where they would like to have their data stored, and comes as the backlash over U.S. surveillance operations intensifies.

“People should have the ability to make an informed choice of where their data resides," said Microsoft general counsel Brad Smith yesterday.

As my co-host Jeff Macke and I discuss in the attached video, the action by the software giant may be the first of its kind, but is surely won’t be the last. In fact, by getting a jump on its industry rivals, Microsoft is making a shrewd business decision that could pay off in spades.

In addition, Microsoft’s pushback comes on the very same day that the government’s new privacy watchdog is set to release a report that calls the NSA’s indiscriminate data gathering illegal, scarcely effective and calls for it to be closed down.


Unfortunately, some people around here doesn't understand the word "illegal."
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:21 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
To think Obama can get away with his b.s. is not surprising! He's a lost cause, and I dare say the historians aren't going to be too kind about his attempts to destroy our Constitution. That's a BIGGIE!


As far as we know he might be acting under the threat of blackmail by the intelligence community.

Quote:


http://www.theguardian.com/film/2012/jan/01/j-edgar-hoover-secret-fbi

Harry S Truman wrote during his presidency: "We want no Gestapo or secret police. FBI is tending in that direction. They are dabbling in sex-life scandals and plain blackmail… Edgar Hoover would give his right eye to take over, and all congressmen and senators are afraid of him."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:52 am
Quote:
WASHINGTON — Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. said Thursday that the United States was willing to discuss how the criminal case against Edward J. Snowden would be handled, but only if Mr. Snowden pleaded guilty first.

Mr. Holder, speaking at a question-and-answer event at the University of Virginia, did not specify the guilty pleas the Justice Department would expect before it would open talks with Mr. Snowden’s lawyers. And the attorney general reiterated that the United States was not willing to offer clemency to Mr. Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who has leaked documents that American officials have said threaten national security.

“Instead,” Mr. Holder said in response to a question at the university’s Miller Center, “were he coming back to the U.S. to enter a plea, we would engage with his lawyers.”

Source and full report
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Justify GCHQ mass surveillance, European court tells ministers
Quote:

Ministers have been ordered to justify GCHQ's mass surveillance programmes by judges at the European court of human rights who have fast-tracked a case brought by privacy and human rights campaigners.

The court in Strasbourg has told the government to provide submissions by the beginning of May about whether GCHQ's spying activities could be a violation of the right to privacy under article 8 of the European convention.

Marking the case a priority, campaigners are hopeful the court will bring a ruling before the end of the year.

The case was brought last September by Big Brother Watch, the Open Rights Group and English PEN, along with the German internet activist Constanze Kurz.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 11:23 am
@Frank Apisa,
No, that's not what he's saying. He says the law prevents him from making a public interest defense, which is his defense and he stands by that purpose. It's also why he's eligible for political asylum in a foreign land. Those who are considering granting him asylum after his year is up in Russia are taking into consideration whether he had any legal recourse other than the actions he took. He did not.

edit: There isn't anything in the law that allows him to plead innocent and get a trial of any kind. When you plead innocent, you have to mount a legal defense. There isn't one. So, yes, he's guilty of breaking the law. But, that doesn't mean he should be charged and convicted under that law.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 11:31 am
@JPB,
Quote:
DAVOS, Switzerland — Russia plans to extend its offer of asylum to Edward J. Snowden beyond August, a Russian lawmaker said Friday at the World Economic Forum here.

The lawmaker, Aleksei K. Pushkov, chairman of the foreign affairs committee in Russia’s lower house of Parliament, hinted during a panel discussion that the extension of temporary refugee status for Mr. Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor, might be indefinite.

“He will not be sent out of Russia,” Mr. Pushkov said. “It will be up to Snowden.” ... ... ...
Source
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 11:49 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The Russians were always going to extend Snowden's status. They want the Yanks to beat their gums to the extent that secrets trickle out as hot-shots try to cover their backs.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 11:55 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

No, that's not what he's saying. He says the law prevents him from making a public interest defense, which is his defense and he stands by that purpose. It's also why he's eligible for political asylum in a foreign land. Those who are considering granting him asylum after his year is up in Russia are taking into consideration whether he had any legal recourse other than the actions he took. He did not.


Fine. If he is granted permanent political asylum in Russia...more power to him.

But if he wants to come back to the US...here are charges pending for which he must stand trial. And that would give him a chance to get back his good name and reputation.

Quote:
edit: There isn't anything in the law that allows him to plead innocent and get a trial of any kind. When you plead innocent, you have to mount a legal defense. There isn't one. So, yes, he's guilty of breaking the law. But, that doesn't mean he should be charged and convicted under that law.


Ahhh...and you are the one who decides that even though he is guilty of breaking the law...he should not be charged or convicted???

Shouldn't that be decided by due process?

Just wondering.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 11:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
What due process would that be? He can't mount a legal defense under the law. There can be no trial. There is no legal basis for mounting a defense. The ONLY legal recourse is to plead guilty and negotiate a plea bargain deal. He wants to make a case before a jury. That cannot happen under the law as it stands.

correction: he could possibly mount an insanity plea and then try to convince a jury he was legally insane. Any mention of a public interest defense would be disallowed. Is that what you'd recommend? A
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:03 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

What due process would that be? He can't mount a legal defense under the law. There can be no trial. There is no legal basis for mounting a defense. The ONLY legal recourse is to plead guilty and negotiate a plea bargain deal. He wants to make a case before a jury. That cannot happen under the law as it stands.


(Not that I am accepting your version of his options, because I do not know the extent of your legal training...)

Do you think that is something he ought to have considered BEFORE he stole state classified documents and released them to unauthorized people???

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:03 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Why don't you tell us about your legal training, JPB...so we can feel more confident of your analysis.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I think he did consider it. I think he knew the risks and knew what he was going to be subjected to in seeking asylum. He gave up his life and his country for a greater good. There was no other legal recourse for him to take.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
It's not my analysis, it's Snowden's analysis from the quote you said sounded flawed.

What legal defense do you suggest he mount should he come back and face a jury?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:13 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I think he did consider it. I think he knew the risks and knew what he was going to be subjected to in seeking asylum. He gave up his life and his country for a greater good. There was no other legal recourse for him to take.


Okay...so why try to disturb what he strove for with such vigor?

Russia is a fine place...and he can live there where all the niceties he craves are met...as opposed to living here where they are not.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Wait a minute…. you've been going on for months about how he deserves a fair trial. What defense do you propose that he be allowed to mount in that trial?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:15 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

It's not my analysis, it's Snowden's analysis from the quote you said sounded flawed.

What legal defense do you suggest he mount should he come back and face a jury?


I am not a lawyer...and have no legal background...so naturally, I would not offer an opinion on something like that, because that would be a foolish and presumptuous thing to do.

But since you are discussing it and offering opinions at length here, JPB, let's get back to my question:

What is your legal background...what is the extent of your legal training?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:16 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Wait a minute…. you've been going on for months about how he deserves a fair trial. What defense do you propose that he be allowed to mount in that trial?


I do not presume to propose anything of that sort. I am not a lawyer...and I have no legal training.

One does not need either to hope anyone accused of crimes in this country get a fair trial....which is all I have ever done.

And your legal training????
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Snowden has a large team of very good lawyers who are advising him. He has stated he would like to make his case before a jury but that the law prevents that. There is no public interest defense in the US (easily verified by a simple google search - it's allowed in some countries but not here). I don't need any legal training to accept that Snowden is getting excellent legal counsel and if they've told him there can be no innocent plea in a court of law then who am I to say otherwise?

Eric Holder yesterday:
Quote:
U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder has said he is is prepared to let the Justice Department talk to Snowden's lawyers about how he can return home to the U.S, a Justice Department official tells CNN.

“If Mr. Snowden wanted to come back to the United States and enter a plea, we would engage with his lawyers. We would do the same with any defendant who wanted to enter a plea of guilty,” Holder said Thursday, speaking at an event at the University of Virginia’s Miller Center.

“We've always indicated that the notion of clemency isn't something that we were willing to consider,” Holder added.


There is no mention of a plea of innocent, because there is no basis for one.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:42 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Snowden has a large team of very good lawyers who are advising him. He has stated he would like to make his case before a jury but that the law prevents that. There is no public interest defense in the US (easily verified by a simple google search - it's allowed in some countries but not here). I don't need any legal training to accept that Snowden is getting excellent legal counsel and if they've told him there can be no innocent plea in a court of law then who am I to say otherwise?

Eric Holder yesterday:
Quote:
U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder has said he is is prepared to let the Justice Department talk to Snowden's lawyers about how he can return home to the U.S, a Justice Department official tells CNN.

“If Mr. Snowden wanted to come back to the United States and enter a plea, we would engage with his lawyers. We would do the same with any defendant who wanted to enter a plea of guilty,” Holder said Thursday, speaking at an event at the University of Virginia’s Miller Center.

“We've always indicated that the notion of clemency isn't something that we were willing to consider,” Holder added.


There is no mention of a plea of innocent, because there is no basis for one.


Once again you have not enlightened us about the extent of your legal training, JPB...so I will have to take your assertion that Snowden cannot enter a plea of innocent with a bargeload of salt. (Actually, I think the plea would be "not guilty" in any case.)

So tell us...how much legal training do you have...that causes you to feel comfortable asserting that Snowden would not be able to plead "not guilty."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2014 12:46 pm
@JPB,
From Wiki.
Quote:
. Early court decisions limited the amendment's scope to a law enforcement officer's physical intrusion onto private property, but with Katz v. United States (1967), the Supreme Court held that its protections, such as the warrant requirement, extend to the privacy of individuals as well as physical locations. Law enforcement officers need a warrant for most search and seizure activities, but the Court has defined a series of exceptions for consent searches, motor vehicle searches, evidence in plain view, exigent circumstances, border searches, and other situations.[/color]
The exclusionary rule is one way the amendment is enforced. Established in Weeks v. United States (1914), this rule holds that evidence obtained through a Fourth Amendment violation is generally inadmissible at criminal trials. Evidence discovered as a later result of an illegal search may also be inadmissible as "fruit of the poisonous tree," unless it inevitably would have been discovered by legal means.
0 Replies
 
 

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