The Bible (a discussion)

@Frank Apisa,

Code:

And you consider the writings of superstitious, relatively unsophisticated, relatively unknowledgeable ancient Hebrews to be unreliable.

That's a crude simplification, and a wrong guess. I consider them very knowledgeable about certain matters. After all, I did base my "Moses post" on the hypothesis that exodus actually happened... and even said the golden calf was a somewhat credible story, in the main.

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People's Magazine Snippet:

In the spirit of not letting down one of my greatest fans, I will make an exception and answer your personal questions.

Frank: You are a female...not a male, right?
Olivier: Wrong. I have a fully functional and rather large penis, as well as working testicles, plus related piping and connecting wires...

Frank: And you would be closer to the truth to describe yourself as an American (or Canadian) than a Frenchman...right?
Olivier: Wrong again. I am sorry if that disappoints you but hey, nobody's perfect!

Frank: What gives you this extraordinary intelligence?
Olivier: I don't know... Intellectual modesty perhaps?

Frank: I find you very sexy, Olivier. Are you available?
Olivier: I'm afraid not, been married for 23 years now and faithful... Also I have no desire whatsoever for 70-something men, sorry!

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Code:And you consider the writings of superstitious, relatively unsophisticated, relatively unknowledgeable ancient Hebrews to be unreliable.

That's a crude simplification, and a wrong guess. I consider them very knowledgeable about certain matters. After all, I did base my "Moses post" on the hypothesis that exodus actually happened... and even said the golden calf was a somewhat credible story, in the main.

Read what I wrote again...and try using all the words I wrote when you read.

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Quote:

People's Magazine Snippet:

In the spirit of not letting down one of my greatest fans, I will make an exception and answer your personal questions.

Frank: You are a female...not a male, right?
Olivier: Wrong. I have a fully functional and rather large penis, as well as working testicles, plus related piping and connecting wires...

Okay...I accept that I was wrong in sensing that you were female.

Quote:

Frank: And you would be closer to the truth to describe yourself as an American (or Canadian) than a Frenchman...right?
Olivier: Wrong again. I am sorry if that disappoints you but hey, nobody's perfect!

This one I have a bit more trouble with...but I will accept that I was wrong in supposing what I did.

Quote:

Frank: What gives you this extraordinary intelligence?
Olivier: I don't know... Intellectual modesty perhaps?

I never asked that question...and I can think of no reason why I would want to ask it.

Quote:

Frank: I find you very sexy, Olivier. Are you available?
Olivier: I'm afraid not, been married for 23 years now and faithful... Also I have no desire whatsoever for 70-something men, sorry!

I never said I find you sexy...I have never asked if you were available...and I am faithful to the woman I have lived with for the last 34 years.

Glad all that is out of the way.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

..and I am faithful to the woman I have lived with for the last 34 years.

That's more Christian than I am capable of envisaging ever being able to manage.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Glad all that is out of the way.

It was never in the way of anything.

1 Reply

@spendius,

A long marriage is not necessarily an unfortunate event...obviously, you haven't been able to see it otherwise. Sad for you.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Glad all that is out of the way.

It was never in the way of anything.

It appeared to be in the way of your happiness...and apparently still is.

Let it go, Olivier.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I'm quite happy to give you the spanking you ask for once in a while, but apart from that, I'm sorry to inform that my happiness does not depend on you, Frank.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I'm quite happy to give you the spanking you ask for once in a while, but apart from that, I'm sorry to inform that my happiness does not depend on you, Frank.

I doubt you are capable of giving me a spanking...figuratively or literally, Olivier. But if you delusions on that matter make your life more bearable...please continue to indulge yourself. In the meantime, I hope you have a day filled with as much enjoyment as I usually have. Wink

1 Reply

@Germlat,

Quote:

A long marriage is not necessarily an unfortunate event...obviously, you haven't been able to see it otherwise. Sad for you.

I consider a 50% divorce rate to signify at least a 95% breakdown in marriage.

And I said nothing about a long marriage being an unfortunate event. Such things are highly practical imo.

But there is no need to imply how happy you are Germie. You can come out and say it as Apisa often does.

I can't say I have ever considered the matter.

1 Reply

@spendius,

It's all wall-to-wall, mealy-mouthed shite as far as I'm concerned Germie.

It has been well known in thinking circles for over 100 years that industrialised commercialism and the female control of reproduction are complementary and that you are perfectly entitled to believe in and work for the matriarchal state which results.

But you are not entitled to disallow men's resistance to it which you do by designating it "sad".

Thinking circles are those in which personal self-interest is set aside.

You seem to have no appreciation of the Rabelaisian aspects of life as Dr. Helena Wright had. She was the successor of Marie Stopes and seemed to consider that the same faithful bloke for 34 years was too much for her to stomach and, indeed, she didn't.

I have a vague memory of Apisa boasting about a threesome but I admit I may have misunderstood. Not that there is anything an atheist need weep over concerning such things although an agnostic might. Just in case.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I doubt you are capable of giving me a spanking...figuratively or literally,

is that your timid way of asking for another one? Don't be greedy now. You'll get your next spanking in a fortnight.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I doubt you are capable of giving me a spanking...figuratively or literally,

is that your timid way of asking for another one? Don't be greedy now. You'll get your next spanking in a fortnight.

What I meant when I said I doubt you are capable of giving me a spanking...figuratively or literally, Olivier...

...is that I doubt you are capable of giving me a spanking...figuratively or literally.

Talk is cheap.

Interesting way you are discussing the Bible!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Interesting way you are discussing the Bible!

Indeed, let's go back to Moses.

"Moses" has been compared with the ancient Egyptian word "mss" -- pronounced something like "messes" or "moses" -- middle kingdom Egyptian didn't write down vowels -- which means "born of" and is part of many famous Egyptian names, such as Ramses, Thutmosis, or Amosis. Typically, those names start with a god's name (Re, Thut, Iah) to which mss is added to mean "born of Re", "born of Thut", etc. The theory is that Moses bore one of these Egyptian names, and that the pagan god part of his name was later dropped when he became the monotheist or monolatrist leader of the wandering Hebrews.

Others have pointed out that any resemblance between Moses and mss is fortuitous because the Jewish name (Moshe) does not include the double s.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Interesting way you are discussing the Bible!

Indeed, let's go back to Moses.

"Moses" has been compared with the ancient Egyptian word "mss" -- pronounced something like "messes" or "moses" -- middle kingdom Egyptian didn't write down vowels -- which means "born of" and is part of many famous Egyptian names, such as Ramses, Thutmosis, or Amosis. Typically, those names start with a god's name (Re, Thut, Iah) to which mss is added to mean "born of Re", "born of Thut", etc. The theory is that Moses bore one of these Egyptian names, and that the pagan god part of his name was later dropped when he became the monotheist or monolatrist leader of the wandering Hebrews.

Others have pointed out that any resemblance between Moses and mss is fortuitous because the Jewish name (Moshe) does not include the double s.

Moses sounds to me like a mythical character...and the genesis of his name the way you are suggesting does not sound unrealistic.

I think the notion that the ancient Hebrews were "expelled" from Egypt by Pharaoh sounds more reasonable than that they "escaped" with Moses and Aaron as leaders. I cannot imagine a mass escape, if opposed by the Egyptian army, without enormous casualties. Additionally, the stories leading up to the escape seem extremely contrived, to say the least.

My guess about the Bible (and its god)....

...has always been that it is primarily a rather indulgent, self-serving history of the ancient Hebrew people (most early histories seem indulgent and self-serving)...interspersed with a rather fanciful, barbaric, and not especially unique mythology. The ancient Hebrews apparently were surrounded by enemies and wanted a protector god who was indulgent to them and almost barbaric to their enemies and potential enemies. The god they invented (still just a guess) was barbaric, murderous, tyrannical, quick-to-anger, slow-to-forgive, petty, and totally focused on the welfare of the Hebrews, to the exclusion of all others.

The people who see "Moses" the way you describe in the beginning of your exposition may be correct; the people who see that explanation as contrived or gratuitous may be correct...or almost any combination of all that.

I don't see any of us ever "solving" that riddle...and it seems to me that the effect of the ancient Hebrew god on the world (especially in its guise formulated by the Jesus story) is where we ought focus attention.

1 Reply

Quote:

Frank Apisa said: Moses sounds to me like a mythical character..

Mythical characters are usually too squeaky-clean and perfect to be true, but Moses was far from that, he was a murderer for example (killed an Egyptian slave-driver)
Likewise other Bible figures have come down to us in the Bible over the centuries warts and all, nobody ever tried to edit the Bible to present them in a better light which is all the more reason for trusting it.. Smile

For example Jesus wasn't much to look at -"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him" (Isaiah 53:2)
And Paul (an ex-bounty hunter) was nothing to write home about -
"For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful, but his appearance is unimpressive, and he speaks poorly" (2 Cor 10:10)
And Moses admitted to being unable to think on his feet-
"O Lord, I have never been eloquent, i'm slow of speech and tongue, send someone else to Pharoah" (Exodus 4:10)
And Jonah was so scared he refused pointblank to be a prophet and jumped on a ship to escape, bad call -
"Jonah ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish." (Jonah 1:3)
And young Jeremiah tried to talk his way out of being a prophet - "Lord i'm no good at speaking, i'm too young and people won't take me seriously" (Jer 1:6)
And Jesus said "Oh God I don't want to die tomorrow, get me out of it if you can" (Matt 26:42)

1 Reply

@spendius,

What?... Have you been in the NyQuil? You sincerely think your post about Frank's long marriage didn't come off as derogatory ? Also your comment about him swinging? That says more about you than me. If two people are honest and agree to the terms of a relationship.....at least they're honest. Maybe not what I would do...but it's not my relationship. What they choose together is none of my business....as long as they're honest with one another...nobody is a victim. Curious: Why did you bring it up? Exploring motive here.

2 Replies

@Germlat,

Germlat wrote:

What?... Have you been in the NyQuil? You sincerely think your post about Frank's long marriage didn't come off as derogatory ? Also your comment about him swinging? That says more about you than me. If two people are honest and agree to the terms of a relationship.....at least they're honest. Maybe not what I would do...but it's not my relationship. What they choose together is none of my business....as long as they're honest with one another...nobody is a victim. Curious: Why did you bring it up? Exploring motive here.

For the record, Germlat (and anyone else listening to Spendius' trash talk)...there has never been any "swinging" or even thoughts about "swinging" in my relationship with Nancy. This is a product of his imagination...not a result of anything I have ever written here or anywhere else. Nancy and I are a monogamous couple who have been together since we met on a blind date in 1981...faithful to each other and in no need of other partners of any sort.

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

And Jesus said "Oh God I don't want to die tomorrow, get me out of it if you can" (Matt 26:42)

Show me any translation that contains this spurious statement, if you can. Or admit you twist the scriptures to fit your own ideas.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Moses sounds to me like a mythical character...and the genesis of his name the way you are suggesting does not sound unrealistic.

The point is that IF Moses is indeed an Egyptian name, that pleads for Moses to be a historical character (much mythologized if course). It's unlikely that the Jewish scribes who wrote Exodus knew enough ancient Egyptian to make up a fake etymology...

Then again, and for all we know, those scribes could have spoken fluent Egyptian... Canaan and Egypt are neighbours and have an intertwined history, through war and conquest, but also trade and economic migration. Egypt's irrigated land produced grain more reliably year after yr than rainfed lands around, so Egypt was a fall back country in times of famine, and a vibrant economy & job market in times of peace.

One thing seems certain: there were still Jews in Egypt AFTER the supposed Exodus. Some of them stayed behind, and they prayed in Elephantine around 500bc to a god called "YHW"...

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Was-there-a-Jewish-temple-in-ancient-Egypt-318363

Sorry, I' m an aegyptomaniac.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

I like to hear from those who are truly loyal....thanks Frank. Some think it's an impossibility...I know better...I've known too many. Maybe we'll find out there's a gene to it in the future( the study is already being worked on). I feel the way you do about my relationship...

0 Replies

The Bible (a discussion)

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