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What are your pet peeves re English usage?

 
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 02:21 pm
Just this morning, on a BBC news broacast, I heard Tony Blair say, quite distinctly, "gonna" for "going to." That's not a peeve, btw. Sounded nice and colloquial. just right.
0 Replies
 
sylvie b
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 03:00 pm
maybe he catch it from George W Bush? Smile
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 03:09 pm
To this jaundiced brit-tuned ear, Tony Blair trying to sound young, cool and hip just grates. Sorry.
"Gonna" does not sound right coming from a Fettes College and Oxbridge-educated lawyer. It sounds like an affectation.

But I'm not a big fan of his.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 03:58 pm
He most probably had an adviser telling him what type of viewer would be watching and what type of language he should use to maximise his appeal.

A real genuine guy !
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 08:19 pm
Quote:
Clary: If someone thinks less of you because you use woolly language or 'wrong' forms (as accepted by most of the Usage panels), that is a good reason to get it 'right'. It is doing a disservice to our children to teach or allow that sort of language in formal situations, just as it is a disservice not to teach them table manners.


You're looking at this much much too narrowly, Clary. Of course, we teach our children when to be polite but the misguided notion that we teach them the gradients of politeness is an old wives tale.

As the LGSWE states, paraphrased, the vast vast majority of people have poor intuitive feelings for the real workings of language. This means that we all know how to use the language in an unconscious fashion just as we know how to breathe but so very few really know how it works.

That's why these "magazine linguists", style book writers, armchair peevists get it so wrong so often. It's hard on the brain to read about something that is so complex {and language is, I assure you} so people love to run for the amateurs, easy reading, and well it's just plain fun. I can take this "argument" and use it to buffalo the next person I catch making this same grievous error.

Remember the posting on those "passive" sentences. There was another recent posting where a member "screwed up" according to PG. It sailed right by all these guardians of the faith.

Language has many different registers and the language that we use in them differs greatly. That's true, innit, Clary. A close look at speech within the home and then one step up to say, school, shows us how vastly different they are.

And children notice these finer distinctions and follow them very closely. But what's so hypocritical, Thomas pointed this out, but it bears repeating; so many of these 'rules' that these usage panels agree on are not language rules for any level of English. They are simply old wives tales.

=================

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html

The legislators of "correct English," in fact, are an informal network of copy-editors, dictionary usage panelists, style manual writers, English teachers, essayists, and pundits. Their authority, they claim, comes from their dedication to implementing standards that have served the language well in the past, especially in the prose of its finest writers, and that maximize its clarity, logic, consistency, elegance, precision, stability, and expressive range. William Safire, who writes the weekly column "On Language" for the [New York Times Magazine], calls himself a "language maven," from the Yiddish word meaning expert, and this gives us a convenient label for the entire group.

To whom I say: Maven, shmaven! Kibbitzers and nudniks is more like it. For here are the remarkable facts. Most of the prescriptive rules of the language mavens make no sense on any level. They are bits of folklore that originated for screwball reasons several hundred years ago and have perpetuated themselves ever since.

For as long as they have existed, speakers have flouted them, spawning identical plaints about the imminent decline of the language century after century. All the best writers in English have been among the flagrant flouters. The rules conform neither to logic nor tradition, and if they were ever followed they would force writers into fuzzy, clumsy, wordy, ambiguous, incomprehensible prose, in which certain thoughts are not expressible at all.

Indeed, most of the "ignorant errors" these rules are supposed to correct display an elegant logic and an acute sensitivity to the grammatical texture of the language, to which the mavens are oblivious.
0 Replies
 
Ay Sontespli
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 11:45 pm
Razz
0 Replies
 
syntinen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 02:26 am
Quote:
Of course, we teach our children when to be polite but the misguided notion that we teach them the gradients of politeness is an old wives tale.

The gradients of politeness? What are those?

Quote:
Language has many different registers and the language that we use in them differs greatly. That's true, innit, Clary.

Yes, it's true, and that's actually just what Clary said.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 07:14 am
McTag wrote:
The Language Instinct is the one I've got.

I can see this is a bit of a minefield, but I'm glad we have not got too bogged down in US vs British usage, which is a bit different.

Actually the crucial aspects of language, the inner workings, if you will, are not that much different for all the major dialects, McTag.

I shy away from "language scientists" telling me "how language works".

Why would anyone, prefer to have pedants tell them "how language works", Mr McTag?Do you shy away from doctors and favour colonic irrigationists or witch doctors.

We are taught English at school, and by our parents, and we continue to learn by listening and reading. I think we learn from people we admire, and from texts which we think have merit; not only academic merit, of course.

Another old wives tale, Sire, but again, an exceedingly common one. The things that you were taught at school relate to but one small area of language. Many of the things that are/were taught at school are/were flat out wrong. That why so many peevists get in trouble here.

Go back a few pages, McTag: who/whom; 'was' can't be used to state a counterfactual, only a subjunctive can be so used; 'can' can't be used for permission, [this seems to be largely confined to the USA but it leaks out to world wide peevists sometimes]; 'that' for restrictive clauses, 'which' for non-restrictive; the list goes on and on.



Innovations become "changes" when enough people think them useful enough to adopt.
Then lexicographers can record them, but I think there must inevitably be a time lag. Into this time lag I think many of our disagreements fall, but I fear I tend to the more conservative fringes of it, if that is not a metaphor too far.

You'd be surprised at how many of these old canards are centuries old. You've got "The Language Instinct"; read Chapter 12, The Language Mavens.

For those of you that don't own the book, the gist of that chapter was written as an article in The New Republic. It can be found at,


http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 07:18 am
This statement is patently foolish:

JTT wrote:
Why would anyone, prefer to have pedants tell them "how language works", Mr McTag?Do you shy away from doctors and favour colonic irrigationists or witch doctors.


Physicians pursue courses of instruction beyond the secondary level of education which last for many years, followed by supervised "on-the-job" training in the form of internships and residency, to wed the scientific knowledge they have imbibed to actual practice in the clinic and on the wards.

The qualification for pedant is the amassing of a large vocabulary and the perfection of the written sneer. This is definitely an "apples to oranges" comparison.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 07:35 am
Setanta wrote:
This statement is patently foolish:

JTT wrote:
Why would anyone, prefer to have pedants tell them "how language works", Mr McTag?Do you shy away from doctors and favour colonic irrigationists or witch doctors.


Physicians pursue courses of instruction beyond the secondary level of education which last for many years, followed by supervised "on-the-job" training in the form of internships and residency, to wed the scientific knowledge they have imbibed to actual practice in the clinic and on the wards.

The qualification for pedant is the amassing of a large vocabulary and the perfection of the written sneer. This is definitely an "apples to oranges" comparison


You seem confused, Setanta? From what McTag wrote, he would opt for pedants over language scientists. As it happens, language scientists go thru a process that is remarkably similar to that of physicians. Here is the very language scientist that McTag would reject in favour of a pedant.

==============================

Curriculum Vitae

Steven Pinker


Department of Psychology

Harvard University

Web site: http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu



Biographical Information



Born September 18, 1954, Montreal, Canada

U. S. Citizen


Education



Doctor of Philosophy (Experimental Psychology), Harvard University, 1979.

Bachelor of Arts (First Class Honors in Psychology), McGill University, 1976.


Academic Positions

2003- Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology, Harvard University
2000-2003 Peter de Florez Professor, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
1994-99 Director, McDonnell-Pew Center for Cognitive Neuroscience at MIT
1989-2000 Professor, Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences,

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

1985-94 Co-Director, Center for Cognitive Science, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

1985-89 Associate Professor, Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences,

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

1982-85 Assistant Professor, Department of Psychology,

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

1981-82 Assistant Professor, Department of Psychology, Stanford University
1980-81 Assistant Professor, Department of Psychology, Harvard

[length has been shortened; I've made my point]
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 07:42 am
The gentleman's CV is of little interest to me . . . however, I did not read into any part of McT's statements a conclusion that he would prefer to follow the precepts of language pedants over the dicta of Mr. Pinker--and hence, your statement made little sense to me. If one assumes, and only for the sake of argument, that McT has expressed a preference for pedantry over "language science" (oh god, that one really cracks me up), then that passage might make sense. It is however, an exercise in willfully blindness not to recognize that usages which facilitate communication, and which are consensually recognized, have more value to language function than libraries full of the pedantry of language scientists--Mr. Pinker's well-padded CV not withstanding.
0 Replies
 
moxiac
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 10:59 am
Re: Probably the worst expression of all
ailsagirl wrote:
I absolutely cringe when I hear someone say, "DUH!!" I can't tell you how stupid that sounds.

I often see this word. DUH! Its somethin like an interjection yeah?
Where's its taken from? From comics??
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booman2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 03:30 pm
Many posts have passed since I've been here but:

JTT,
That's my peeve, and I'm sticking to it! (Picture me with my arms crossed defiantly, and my head tilted toward the sky)....Hmmph!
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2005 02:00 am
Little time today, but I will return on Sunday to defend myself. I am off to the city of Boswell and Johnson.

I reviendrai.
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booman2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2005 03:44 pm
Can anyone tell me what the ...heck.. the city of boswell and Johnson is, or do I have to wait until Sunday? Confused Confused
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2005 05:56 pm
I assume it's London. But what do I know?
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2005 07:01 pm
i sure hope it still is or have we all been misled ? hbg
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2005 11:34 pm
booman2 wrote:
Many posts have passed since I've been here but:

JTT,
That's my peeve, and I'm sticking to it! (Picture me with my arms crossed defiantly, and my head tilted toward the sky)....Hmmph!


I see you prefer the mystical approach, Booman. So be it. Smile
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 12:21 pm
You find no man, at all intellectual, who is willing to leave London. No, Sir, when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford.


Samuel Johnson
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2005 02:22 am
Quote:
SetantaThe gentleman's CV is of little interest to me . . . however, I did not read into any part of McT's statements a conclusion that he would prefer to follow the precepts of language pedants over the dicta of Mr. Pinker--and hence, your statement made little sense to me. If one assumes, and only for the sake of argument, that McT has expressed a preference for pedantry over "language science" (oh god, that one really cracks me up), then that passage might make sense.


JTT: A cursory reading of some of Mr McTag's earlier postings would more than adequately fill you in, Setanta. But he is coming around.


Quote:
It is however, an exercise in willfully blindness not to recognize that usages which facilitate communication, and which are consensually recognized, have more value to language function than libraries full of the pedantry of language scientists--Mr. Pinker's well-padded CV not withstanding.


JTT: You've hit the nail on the head, Setanta. It is exactly, this very "willful blindness" on the part of pedants/PGs to disallow consensually recognized usages, that has caused the problems. This thread is chock full of these oft-repeated falsehoods.
0 Replies
 
 

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