Does God Exist?

@RexRed,

If people are hurt or upset by the Bible, it's their problem not mine.. Wink

Jesus said:-"Whoever's ashamed of me and my words, I'll be ashamed of him" (Mark 8:38 )

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@neologist,

Quote:

I think highly of you, also, Frank.

I am quite astounded, neo, that I seem to be the only one who has noticed that Apisa treats A2K members as if they are mentally deficient. I can only assume that they are.

He wouldn't last a night in a pub discussion. His use of Ignore would result in him sitting in a corner on his own reassuring himself as to his own brilliance.

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@spendius,

Apisa is a bit like the First Lady appearing on a photo-op with a placard saying that the abducted Nigerian girls should be returned to their families as if she is a very special person to take such a view.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Your god, Neo...the one you claim you are not distancing yourself from...supposedly said that it is perfectly fine with him for people to own and trade in slaves...and to keep the slaves as chattels...pass them on to their heirs.

Deal with that, because who "brought slavery into a formerly perfect world" is a dodge.

Once again, I feel a need to mention that you are one of my favorite posters here in A2K...and I am not attacking you in anger. I disagree with your position...and I would love to see you change it, just as I am sure you would love to see change in me.
I think highly of you, also, Frank. Your avatar reminds me of my oldest brother.

Also, you somehow managed to continue living in New Jersey (gasp).

But the entire human race was sold into slavery, in many forms including slavery to death, in Genesis chapter 3. You may free yourself from further consideration by claiming this was a sting; but the end result is we all inherit death as a result of Adam and Eve's rebellion.

I see no such assertion in Genesis. In fact, I see the god telling Adam and Eve to get out and toil.

But for the god to tell people they can actually own slaves...indicates that the god realizes there will be both slaves and slave owners.

This is not a particularly good rationalization, Neo...and is only being made because you see a need to defend the god.

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It is entirely logical for one to now ask "Why didn't God just unsell the human race , since he has the power? Why didn't he just zap the rebels and start over? Read the chapter over again. Read chapters 1 and 2 of Job and try to get an idea of what other issues there are other than the seemingly inconsequential fruit.

I think it is even more logical to ask why the god went out of its way to tell people that owning slaves and trading in slaves is okay.

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The entire world is and has been in Satan's control since that time; so it is no surprise that slavery is a part of it.

The god has more responsibility for the slavery...than Satan. Read the book...you will see.

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Jehovah regulated it in the case of the Jews. Not so for other nations.

Ahhh...so Jews in America, for instance, should be allowed to own slaves because our Jehovah says it is okay????

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@neologist,

You're at an impasse neo.

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@spendius,

You folks are all worth the effort.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . . Ahhh...so Jews in America, for instance, should be allowed to own slaves because our Jehovah says it is okay?

You've missed the points again, Frank. Jehovah's covenant with the Jews expired about 3 and a half years after Jesus' death at the time of Cornelius' baptism. This was in accord with Daniel's prophecy. (Dan 9:27)

You have often asked why Jesus never condemned slavery. Yet Jesus' instructions to his followers clearly changed the rules applying to that institution, making it more like contracted employment. At the same time, he often made reference to slavery in his parables. One in particular refers to a "faithful slave" which would appear in the time of the end. Those of us who are living in this time would do well to look for that "slave". Perhaps it may be a class of people willing to obey God regardless of personal cost. I don't claim to be a member of that class, but I am willing to obey.

And here is an aside to those who feel demeaned by the Bible's prohibition of homosexual acts. Both Jesus (Mathew 19:10-12) and Paul (1 Corinthians 7:38) recommended singleness. Apparently, abstaining from sex is not considered punishment, according to the scriptures.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . Ahhh...so Jews in America, for instance, should be allowed to own slaves because our Jehovah says it is okay?
You've missed the points again, Frank. Jehovah's covenant with the Jews expired about 3 and a half years after Jesus' death at the time of Cornelius' baptism. This was in accord with Daniel's prophecy. (Dan 9:27)

I have not missed the point, Neo...it just that I am not buying your rationalizations. The god of the Old Testament said that it was okay for people to own other people...to buy and sell other humans...and to treat them as chattels.

Supposedly he said this to them just a few years after (supposedly) escaping from mass slavery themselves.

C'mon...this all sucks...and you are wearing yourself out trying to rationalize it.

Quote:

You have often asked why Jesus never condemned slavery. Yet Jesus' instructions to his followers clearly changed the rules applying to that institution, making it more like contracted employment.

They were not contracted employees...they were slaves. If they had children...their children could be sold to someone else...their spouses could also.

Stop this! It makes my eyes water to read it.

Quote:

At the same time, he often made reference to slavery in his parables. One in particular refers to a "faithful slave" which would appear in the time of the end. Those of us who are living in this time would do well to look for that "slave". Perhaps it may be a class of people willing to obey God regardless of personal cost. I don't claim to be a member of that class, but I am willing to obey.

Jesus did not condemn slavery...and the god Jesus worshiped said there was nothing wrong with it.

You gotta live with that, Neo.

Quote:

And here is an aside to those who feel demeaned by the Bible's prohibition of homosexual acts. Both Jesus (Mathew 19:10-12) and Paul (1 Corinthians 7:38) recommended singleness. Apparently, abstaining from sex is not considered punishment, according to the scriptures.

Well...I am having a lot less trouble with it these days than just a few short years ago. But we were talking about slavery. Let's stick with that.

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@Frank Apisa,

Has Kuwait restored its slavery system now that we have rescued it from Saddam?

Quote:

This concept is derived directly from the Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle (with Silvanus and Timothy) to the Thessalonians, in which Paul writes:

εἴ τις οὐ θέλει ἐργάζεσθαι μηδὲ ἐσθιέτω

that is,

If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

That's either forced labour or a death sentence in the context. Slaves were fed and some got rich and influential. They had security which they were allowed to pass on to their children. It wasn't New Jersey. And there are slaves in New Jersey right now if the word "slave" is defined properly. With gross inequality of wealth some form of slavery in inevitable. A fact of life. The Absentee Landrord which Veblen wrote a book about is a slave owner. All the pensioners are slave owners. Anybody who doesn't work and yet eats, drinks and is merry. Or thinks he's merry despite not have realised yet, after 77 years, that the Bible is a comical masterpiece of literature. Like Bill Gates going around saying what Jesus said. In fact what Jesus said underpins most of media's morality and its denizens eat, drink and are merry a great deal and they love it so much they ought to be paying us to let them do it because it is not work. If you don't laugh at the sight of a prominent lady wringing her hands about the plight of the Nigerian schoolgirls, probably a distant outcome of western foreign policy, you have not got a proper sense of humour. They don't give a ****. Switch the camera off and see. So you can imagine the sardonic laughter when Jesus told the meek in rags that they would inherit the earth. And that they should love that bastard in the next hovel, as one loves oneself, when he stole the last of the lamp oil and pulled a dagger when accused. Or the guy with a wide range of power tools which he likes to play with just after dawn.

"You want cheap housing my friends? Stop *******. It's easy. A few years of not ******* and houses on which taxes are levied will require a bribe to be included in a sale."

It's true too. And you can't help laugh now can you. Anybody moaning about house prices is moaning about the amount of ******* going on. The mind creases itself.

I would put a stop to Media right now.

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@spendius,

I don't think Paul was talking about physical work, he was talking about spiritual study that feeds the mind. The mind is starved by the lack of spiritual matters.

If you don't study and learn spiritual matters you become spiritually undernourished.

Paul also talks about quality fruit.

The harvest is the fruit of the spirit and the laborers are the saints.

Not once that I know of is Jesus ever depicted in prolonged manual labor, he did wash the disciples feet.

But on the other hand, Jesus was highly studied in scrolls...

One wonders if radical religion is the best spiritual nourishment.

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@neologist,

Jesus is just pointing out that celibacy is an option that is just as respectable as marriage.

Jesus' focus was on the spiritual not the sexual and he did say Angels have no sex.

There is confusion between paradise and heaven.

Who goes to paradise and who goes to heaven?

Paradise is a place of laws... Heaven is a place of grace.

This is a much more complicated thing that many people make errant assumptions based upon compounded misconceptions.

Question, are you going to heaven or paradise and why?

Heaven is a homogeneous place. I guess that is why God doesn't have a wife. But Jesus gets to have a bride (well sort of).

And just because God no longer requires slaves (so some say) that somehow absolves this very God of all past wrong doing?

So is the actual wrong doing on God's part or is God blaming the devil for masquerading as him and causing spiritually blind people to follow in an untoward way?

So when the Bible said. "I THE LORD YOUR GOD command so and such", BUT it was actually the devil, and the prophets and people believed it was God telling them slaves were okay? When God caused the flood it was actually the devil that caused it to rain 40 days and 40 nights? What was this "creature" God of the old testament? The God of this world?

Or... did God simply change and say nope, I no longer need the slaves, let them go!?

An answer to which of these question is required. One way God's integrity is in question and the other the legitimacy of the written laws and scriptures are in doubt.

Either way there is egregious fault, racism, sexism, homophobia, genocide, mutilations and mob brutality, these cast either the scriptures or the God of the scriptures and/or both into a bad, err, 'light'.

A truly moral person rejects books of such atrocity.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

The new testament actually tries to put a slant on slavery.

Paul and parts of the gospels introduce the "willing slave". You are a willing slave because you have a master who is good and, well, "racially superior". (cynical)

Like ole, Cliven Bundy who said those Negros don't know how good they had it picking cotton...

Comment:
Why can't they just be "willing slaves"?

"It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

Yoked to the master...

I suppose a willing slave absolves the slave master of any guilt...

When Paul refers to himself as "the prisoner (servant) of the lord" that actually translates as "willing slave".

Isn't a "willing slave" an oxymoron?

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@RexRed,

Quote:

Isn't a "willing slave" an oxymoron?

Not in the outer reaches.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
Isn't a "willing slave" an oxymoron?

Not in the outer reaches.

If you are a slave you have no will.

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@RexRed,

RexRed wrote:

Jesus is just pointing out that celibacy is an option that is just as respectable as marriage.

Jesus' focus was on the spiritual not the sexual and he did say Angels have no sex.

There is confusion between paradise and heaven.

Who goes to paradise and who goes to heaven?

Paradise conditions may apply in heaven. I couldn't say. I'm sure those who go there will not at all be disappointed. But the transliteration of the Garden of Eden is literally 'Paradise of Pleasure". It was located on earth and there is no indication that Jehovah ever changed his mind about his desire for humans to populate earth. In fact, there is considerable evidence to the contrary. (Think "The meek shall inherit the earth")

RexRed wrote:

Paradise is a place of laws... Heaven is a place of grace.

This is a much more complicated thing that many people make errant assumptions based upon compounded misconceptions.

Question, are you going to heaven or paradise and why?

Not expecting to go to heaven and not feeling deprived.

RexRed wrote:

Heaven is a homogeneous place.

I don't think so. Apparently there are divisions of angels; cherubs, seraphs, etc.

RexRed wrote:

I guess that is why God doesn't have a wife. But Jesus gets to have a bride (well sort of).

If you read Revelation carefully, you will see Jesus' bride is composed of a class of individuals. Recall that the nation of Israel was referred to as Jehovah's 'wife'.

RexRed wrote:

And just because God no longer requires slaves (so some say) that somehow absolves this very God of all past wrong doing?

It is not wrongdoing on God's part for managing the condition of slavery that was brought about by Satan.

RexRed wrote:

So is the actual wrong doing on God's part or is God blaming the devil for masquerading as him and causing spiritually blind people to follow in an untoward way?

God is not merely blaming the devil. The devil is the one responsible.

RexRed wrote:

So when the Bible said. "I THE LORD YOUR GOD command so and such", BUT it was actually the devil, and the prophets and people believed it was God telling them slaves were okay? When God caused the flood it was actually the devil that caused it to rain 40 days and 40 nights? What was this "creature" God of the old testament? The God of this world?

That would require that God allow the lie to be incorporated in the Bible twice. (psalm 119:60 and John 11:17 "your word is truth.")

RexRed wrote:

Or... did God simply change and say nope, I no longer need the slaves, let them go!?

God has no need of anything from us, let alone slaves. But the concept of slavery figures very much in prophecy, especially in our time.

RexRed wrote:

An answer to which of these question is required. One way God's integrity is in question and the other the legitimacy of the written laws and scriptures are in doubt

Either way there is egregious fault, racism, sexism, homophobia, genocide, mutilations and mob brutality, these cast either the scriptures or the God of the scriptures and/or both into a bad, err, 'light'.

A truly moral person rejects books of such atrocity.

Like Frank, you fail to understand the entire world is and has been under control of Satan ever since the rebellion in Eden. You may choose to believe his spin or not.

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@RexRed,

RexRed wrote:

The new testament actually tries to put a slant on slavery.

Paul and parts of the gospels introduce the "willing slave". You are a willing slave because you have a master who is good and, well, "racially superior". (cynical)

Like ole, Cliven Bundy who said those Negros don't know how good they had it picking cotton...

Comment:
Why can't they just be "willing slaves"?

"It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

Yoked to the master...

I suppose a willing slave absolves the slave master of any guilt...

When Paul refers to himself as "the prisoner (servant) of the lord" that actually translates as "willing slave".

Isn't a "willing slave" an oxymoron?

The Bible is an abomination when it comes to slavery, Rex.

Why these otherwise good people cannot come to grips with that is beyond imagination.

If there is anything that leads one to guess that the Bible is purely man made...with nothing whatever to say about any real GOD...it is the parts that have to do with slavery.

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Quote:

Frank "Elmer Gantry" Apisa said: The Bible is an abomination when it comes to slavery

No offence mate, but are you a closet fire-and-brimstone Old T fundy preacher?
Jesus gave us the NEW Testament (the clue is in the name), so you've got some catching up to do.. Wink

(1 Timothy 1:9, New T)- "Law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers.."

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank "Elmer Gantry" Apisa said: The Bible is an abomination when it comes to slavery

No offence mate, but are you a closet fire-and-brimstone Old T fundy preacher?
Jesus gave us the NEW Testament (the clue is in the name), so you've got some catching up to do..

(1 Timothy 1:9, New T)- "Law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers.."

The new testament is no more than an excuse for the old testament. Backpedaling and pandering and schizophrenic wrangling of scriptures to try and justify an unjust and immoral God.

It throws morality out as if it has divine insight on this morality, this divine insight is no more than human writers making **** up.

There is no Armageddon, no and most biblical prophecies are racist and based upon a God that had little to no credibility. I am not racist and I should not have to accept a Bible that is racist from cover to cover.

That is why i put down the Koran and stopped reading it. Is is purely and simply racist just like the old and new testaments.

You seem so proud of your new testament yet your new testament and the Koran are nothing but a band-aid on a malignant cancer...

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Jesus was and is a slave owner and a man-stealer. How many flock to the name of Jesus under a wide array of any pretenses. Jesus is the greatest instrument used to enslave next to promises of pleasure and paradise.

Paul who claimed to be a "servant of Jesus Christ" and his disciples called Jesus "master".

Jesus who descended into hell and triumphed over captivity and "took of the spoils". Those spoils would have included some err, slaves...

We still have this captivity today and many use Jesus and Christianizing the world as the justification for such captivity.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank "Elmer Gantry" Apisa said: The Bible is an abomination when it comes to slavery

No offence mate, but are you a closet fire-and-brimstone Old T fundy preacher?
Jesus gave us the NEW Testament (the clue is in the name), so you've got some catching up to do..

Jesus did not give us the NEW Testament.

The way the Bible treats the subject of slavery most assuredly is an abomination.

You have some waking up to do.

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