Does God Exist?

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Well, y'know Frank, it all comes back to the difference between the old and new covenants. The old law was meticulous and severe for a reason.

You and I cannot seem to agree on the manner or effect of Jesus having fulfilled it.

Funny thing about all these hero movies. There was a line yesterday about the need people have for hope that things will be better. Sort of a 'thy kngdom come' plea. . . .

Neo, I acknowledge and appreciate your take on that...although obviously I disagree.

But...you mentioned that the Bible is very clear on the question of homosexuality...and I agreed.

Here it is again:

“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” Leviticus 20-13

Obviously the god of the Bible considers homosexual activity (at least among men) to be such an abomination...it decrees death...whether the easy death of dying as a human...or the thunderous death of soul.

Either way, Neo...the punishment the god of the Bible decrees is excruciating.

Frankly, being stoned to death...as most read the passage to mean...is the lesser of the two possibilities. But I acknowledge your right to think that the harsher punishment is what prevails.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

All who have ever lived are deserving of death. (Romans 6:23). Do you think those who suffered severe punishments under the old law might lead better lives if they had another chance? If conditions changed? Perhaps things would go differently. (John 5: 28, 29)

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@neologist,

Tell that to all the Jews who were exterminated, and the two million Cambodians killed by Po Pot. They were, after all, all sinners.

How about all those lives under Stalin and Mao? They were all sinners too?

But, we all know that the world was cleansed from sin when god flooded this planet. Don't we?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Tell that to all the Jews who were exterminated, and the two million Cambodians killed by Po Pot. They were, after all, all sinners.

How about all those lives under Stalin and Mao? They were all sinners too?

That is exactly what John 5:28, 29 promises.
Assume for a moment (I know, but take a deep breath) that the Bible is correct. After these folks have lived another 1000 years or so, would they curse God for the pain they formerly received or bless him for the peaceful life they enjoy?

1 Reply

@neologist,

Before god appeared on this planet, people were not afraid of most things - especially god's wrath.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

All who have ever lived are deserving of death. (Romans 6:23). Do you think those who suffered severe punishments under the old law might lead better lives if they had another chance? If conditions changed? Perhaps things would go differently. (John 5: 28, 29)

Better lives????

C'mon, Neo. Is that god going to decide what "better" is all about?

Anyway...the bottom line is that I am in agreement with you that the Bible is indeed very, very, very clear on the question of homosexuality.

The god of the Bible considers it such an abomination that anyone engaging in it should be put to death for that transgression...

...or, as you now point out, an even worse punishment should be exacted.

Right?

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@Frank Apisa,

If you think having a second chance at life without ever having to worry about war or crime or sickness or death to be a bad thing, I guess you may be right.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Before god appeared on this planet, people were not afraid of most things - especially god's wrath.

Funny you should put it that way.

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@neologist,

ok what does the survey say?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

If you think having a second chance at life without ever having to worry about war or crime or sickness or death to be a bad thing, I guess you may be right.

If you think taking away that "second chance at life" as a penalty for acting on a sexual attraction for someone of the same sex to be a good thing, Neo...I guess you may be right about the god of the Bible. If you see that to be a good thing...you may be right that the god is a worthy god.

Personally, I think the entire anti-homosexual bias is vastly over-done...and damn near all the scorn heaped on homosexuals is the result of the silly prejudice of a bunch of superstitious, relatively unsophisticated, relatively uneducated group of ancient Hebrews who apparently put their biases into the mouth of a vengeful, fierce, demanding god they seem to have invented.

I like you, Neo...you are one of my favorite posters. But you are hung up on this god...a god who seems even to a skeptic like myself, to be unworthy of any considerations, let alone adoration.

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@Frank Apisa,

still crunching numbers eh?

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

If you think taking away that "second chance at life" as a penalty for acting on a sexual attraction for someone of the same sex to be a good thing,

It is reasonable to assume that the people of those times thought that overt homosexuality was dangerous to their way of life just as Apisa thinks that Eddie Snowden upholding the Constitution is dangerous and would like him to be given a fair trial. Covert homosexuality could not be punished by internal logic.

He is imagining the Hebrew way of life to be similar, or even identical, with life in NJ in 2014. Like any old moo cow with a gob bigger than its brain.

God has nothing to do with it and it is truly amazing that Apisa thinks otherwise.

Male homosexuality is no longer seen as a danger. The female version has never been. Although it might be becoming so. It's early days.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Before god appeared on this planet, people were not afraid of most things - especially god's wrath.

They must have been afraid of everything.

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Quote:

Frank Apisa said:.. a god who seems even to a skeptic like myself, to be unworthy of any considerations, let alone adoration.

God said through Jesus's mouth-
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor" (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

so he sounds an alright God to moi.. Wink

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

...a god who seems even to a skeptic like myself, to be unworthy of any considerations, let alone adoration.

Sorry for loosing the boldface, at first (that expresses your anger at the world ... when somebody misses the actual arguments).
How did you come to know that God is 'unworthy of any consideration' (and who are you to judge and qualify whosoever) ... when you don't have even have the vaguest idea of what God might be.
O.K. you the atheists deny His/Her/Its/Their (ILF) existence, but suppose God is part of you, in the event when God is defined as the collective conscience of the humans on this planet ... + whatever else there It might be.
How can you deny yourself ... and what does that mean?
Nobody expects from people like you and FM to respect and 'adore' anything ... but just be honest to confess that we are missing critically important information, which is the key to understand the things ... what it is all about.

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@Herald,

Quote:

Nobody expects from people like you and FM to respect and 'adore' anything

The primary definition of adore is to"Hold in highest esteem, love, or honor". You have no idea about what either Mr Apisa and I are capable of adoring. Youre merely tryig to use this thread as a tub upon which to thump for a worldview that requires complete fealty and homage to a supernatural creature, the entire existence of whom is without any evidence . In fact , observing the natural world's continuity and daily "O&M", there appears that much evidence exists which counters such a being's being.

1 Reply

Quote:

Farmerman said: a supernatural creature, the entire existence of whom is without any evidence .

The universe is plenty of circumstantial evidence, or do atheists think it (titter) just decided to create itself?.. Smile

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said:.. a god who seems even to a skeptic like myself, to be unworthy of any considerations, let alone adoration.

God said through Jesus's mouth-
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor" (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

so he sounds an alright God to moi..

Jesus sounds like a cool guy, Romeo...and a person who recognizes the god he is required to worship as not particularly worthy of that worship.

If you want to think that was some god speaking through Jesus...that is your right. But a more reasonable assessment would be that Jesus (or the people who spoke for Jesus)...saw injustice and wanted to right things.

The god Jesus worshiped is far from being worthy of worship...which is probably the reason Christians try to distance themnselves from it.

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@Herald,

Herald wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
...a god who seems even to a skeptic like myself, to be unworthy of any considerations, let alone adoration.

Sorry for loosing the boldface, at first (that expresses your anger at the world ... when somebody misses the actual arguments).
How did you come to know that God is 'unworthy of any consideration' (and who are you to judge and qualify whosoever) ... when you don't have even have the vaguest idea of what God might be.

I am not angry.

What makes you so sure I do not have the vaguest idea?

I am pretty sure I have as reasonable a idea about gods as you do.

Quote:

O.K. you the atheists deny His/Her/Its/Their (ILF) existence, but suppose God is part of you, in the event when God is defined as the collective conscience of the humans on this planet ... + whatever else there It might be.

I am not an atheist...there may well be a GOD...and I have argued that with the atheists here.

Try to understand what is going on BEFORE you start your arguments, Herald.

Quote:

How can you deny yourself ... and what does that mean?

I have no idea...and I have not denied myself.

Tell me...are you making this stuff up by yourself...or is someone helping you? If someone is helping you...get a new helper. This one is not very good.

Quote:

Nobody expects from people like you and FM to respect and 'adore' anything ... but just be honest to confess that we are missing critically important information, which is the key to understand the things ... what it is all about.

I suspect you are "missing critically important information" more than either FM or myself.

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Quote:

Frank Apisa said: The god Jesus worshiped is far from being worthy of worship...which is probably the reason Christians try to distance themnselves from it.

Personally I like God because he's not some limp-wristed politically-correct lefty social worker.
And the last time I looked, Christians certainly weren't trying to distance themselves from God, but atheists and agnostics certainly were; they can run but can't hide.. Wink

"Am I only a nearby God? Can you hide? I fill heaven and earth" (Jeremiah 23:23/4)
"How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot,....it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb 10:29-31)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/fury.gif

2 Replies

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