A World Without Jesus
I really dislike creation of alternate histories; what might have been if only
That is fiction, not history at all. History is made up of facts, or at least what we perceive to be facts. Historical events don't happen in a vacuum, but are the results of prior events, and the interplay of complex trends and conditions. Characters whose thoughts, words and actions are deemed significant are memorialized. Sometimes historical figures become legend, and legendary figures sometimes are given real human existence. People and events are not only the result of a larger tapestry, they are afterwards the causes of other events and may influence the direction of trends that may not have existed before.
History, it seems to me, is far more often the expression of how large groups behave in varied circumstances, than it is the product of ANY individual. If Alexander had died before Philip, then some other would have done their best to conquer the ancient world. No Jesus, then some other would have inspired new directions within the Jewish religious tradition. No Hitler, then perhaps Himmeler. Wars and religions are especially woven into, and of a larger fabric and are less dependant upon the thoughts, words, and actions of any one person, or even one small group out of a larger whole.
That said, and supposing that the historical trends and events that converge in the life of an obscure Jewish carpenter would not have produced a doppelganger, let's briefly play the "What if" game. Of course, we must also suppose that the events that gave rise to Paul's conversion and the Gospels written long after the death of the historical Jesus, never occurred since what we now call Christianity almost certainly owe more to those later PR people than the thought, words, and actions of the actual Jesus.
1. The problems and frictions that resulted in the Diaspora would have occurred regardless. So Jewish communities would have spread around the Mediterranean, north into the Baltic and east into Europe through the gateway of Rome. Some Roman Emperors used early Christians as scapegoats and as an example of what might happen if individuals, or groups, defied the Personality Cult that was part of the Roman State. In the absence of Christianity, the Romans may well have persecuted another group, and there were a pretty fair number of reasonable candidates available in the first three centuries of the CE.
2. Rome would still have fallen sometime around the 4th century CE from the same internal faults and weaknesses that brought down the real Rome. Division of the Empire into Eastern and Western portions predated Constantine. The Byzantine Empire would have probably remained pagan in the absence of a Christian movement. There would, of course, been no Nicean Conference to select from among the many Christian writings what should become dogma.
3. After the fall of Rome, Europe would probably still have fragmented largely along feudal lines. Without a central religious authority in Rome, local structures would probably have consisted primarily of just two classes; lord and peasant. Peasants would still have been tenant farmers beholden to the local lord whose military strength protected them from outside intrusion. Warfare between lords may have been somewhat more frequent and pushed more often to clear victory over opponents. I suspect that by the 7th, or 8th century, some warlords would be on the threshold of "national" sized holdings. Think Charles Martel. Without the constraints imposed by the Church, it's possible that classical learning would have been much more wide spread inside Europe at a far earlier date than we believe happened in real history.
4. Islam came into existence without much reference to the Christian movement, and so we would expect that the history of Islam would have been pretty much the same at least up until the 9th, or 10th century. Without Christianity in the picture, there would have been no Crusades. That might have resulted in faster development of European structures, i.e., nationalism, commercial capitalism, etc., or perhaps not. The expansion of Islam would have still challenged the Byzantine Empire, and we would expect that it would have still have fallen before Islamic armies. It's an open question of whether the great ethnic divisions in the Balkans would have developed, if a strong Christian community didn't exist to counterbalance Islam. I think that Islam would have been turned back at the gates of Vienna, just as they were in our actual history. Croissant's would still exist, hoorah.
5. Refugees from the disorders in the Middle East would still have arrived in Sicily carrying the Plague, and upwards of a quarter of Europe's population would still have perished. The Plague may have arrived earlier, if Byzantium had fallen more quickly. Would a pagan Byzantine have proven more, or less able to resist the Islamic expansion? In any case, the socio-economic structure of Europe would have been extremely strained by the effects of the Plague. Feudal ties would probably have been broken, and peasant labor would have become much more valuable. With no Church authority to police how people thought, we expect that the primary effect of the die off would be social and economic, rather than intellectual. Had European society developed movable type and gunpowder earlier, perhaps the Plague might not have been quite so lethal, and that in turn would have mitigated the revolutionary effects that actually did occur.
6. Without the unraveling of a thousand years of Church domination, there would have been no Luther. No Reformation would have been necessary, and neither would there have been a Counter-Reformation. Take those off the table, and the religious wars that so decimated Europe almost to the end of the 17th century could not have happened. The death toll in those religious conflicts was on the same order of magnitude as The Plague. Cromwell might have existed, but the foundations of the time would have been economic rather than religious. The whole terrible dance of and for power played out between emerging nations and the power of a centralized religious institution would not have existed. On the other hand, the carnage of the religious wars made the notion of religious tolerance a major pillar in Western Civilization. If there were no religious wars that killed millions, we might not have developed the notion that every individual should be free to follow whatever religion they wish.
7. The New World would still have been discovered as Europe sought to find a fast, safe, and inexpensive route to the riches of the Indies. The discovery might not have been financed and supported by Spain. Spain's long struggle between Christian and Moor was just being finalized when Ferdy and Isabel managed to unite Spain. Tough veterans of those wars carried the sword to the Americas, and the Cross was right there along side of them. In our alternate universe, the discovery might have been by an Englishman, or a Dutchman, or a Frenchman more interested in pure trade, than in conquest and conversion.
8. Even without conquest, loot and conversion as a motive for large-scale contact with the Aztecs, the results would have been devastating to AmerIndians. European diseases were far more lethal to the aboriginal population than was any policy of mass murder and slavery. I'm afraid that the great Empires of the New World were doomed by European contact no matter how much we downplay the religious angle.
9. I suspect that New England colonies would still have separated themselves from the old country, but it might have been New France rebelling against the French King. Mexico might be speaking English, while the folks living in North Dakota might be speaking Castilian. Would that have meant that illegal immigration was from north to south, instead of the other way around?
10. If the political, social and economic structures of European nations had developed without the Christianity, and the dogma struggles within it, the French Revolution might have been necessary. No French Revolution, then no Terror to drive Frenchmen to the banners of Napoleon. Imagine, the effects upon history if there had been no Napoleonic Wars! The great impetus toward developing Industrialism and modern market economies came as England and France struggled through the last decade of the 18th and first two decades of the 19th century. Total war demanding total national effort was born. Transportation and new ideas about how to organize and integrate nation-sized efforts resulted from that period. Conflict between two or more European nation-sized powers probably would have still occurred, but the major struggle might have been earlier, or later. Out of the debris of the Napoleonic Wars came a set of accords that kept the European peace until the early 20th century. WWI and, by extension, WWII resulted at least in from treaties concluded in the first 25 years of the 19th century.
11. Premodern social structures that failed to resolve the conflict between agrarian and commercial capitalist systems have often resulted in Fascist types of political structures. To the extent that the Christian religion has impacted the evolution of societies from subsistence farming/barter economies into market economies based upon stable coinage and the production of goods, the transition would have been different. Perhaps the change to modern economic and social structures would have been easier, or it might have been worse. No one can say, nor can we be sure of what direction the world might have taken if we took Christianity out of the equation.
Asherman, Great piece of writing. Enjoyed reading and hearing your ideas about the when's, the why's and therefores. Any ideas on how countries like China and Australia with it's very old cultures relate - if any - in the larger scheme of human development - without Jesus?
The greatest impact that Christianity has had on Africa and Asia was due to missionary zeal. Christian missionaries did their best to destroy the indiginous religions, but had only limited success in places like China.
Christianity DID play a large role in forming the values associated with Western Civilization. In that secondary sense, the impact on other cultures was much greater than merely converting the heathens. The cultural values of Europe swamped the Indians of North America, though native religion remains vigorous in many parts of the country. The idea that SouthSea Islanders should wear heavy woolen clothing more suitbable to New England than the tropics is one of those cases where it's almost impossible to seperate the religion from the values picked up in the larger culture.
The impact of Christianity on Western values is complex. The idea that individuals matter in the larger scheme of things is not universal. On the other hand as I pointed out above, Western ideas about religious tolerance came about as a reaction to Christian intolerance. There have been times when Christianity was spread by the sword, but that notion has pretty much died out in Western culture.
Only 11 points Asherman. Was that deliberate, one being treacherous?
Very observant, Steve. I missed that one! Shucks....
hici
good to hear from you hope everthing ok
Steve, All is fine in the golden state - atleast for us(wife and I, and most family and friends).
asherman wrote : "There have been times when Christianity was spread by the sword, but that notion has pretty much died out in Western culture." well, i don't think it is expressed in exactly those terms nowadays. recently watched "60 minutes" where one of the correspondents spent time with some born-again christians visiting israel. the spokesman(i don't think he would like to be called "spokesperson" IMO) explained that they expect about half of the israelis to die and the other half to become christians at the soon expected second coming(have i got the term right ?). the cbs chap thought that was a pretty nasty way of dealing with jews; "oh" was the reply, "it's nothing personal, but it's what the bible says". the spokesman was not some fellow who had just crawled out from under a rock, but a very well spoken (retired) vice-president of general electric(not that i want to blame G.E. - just to point out that he seemed to be an otherwise well educated and experienced person). the way i read this fellow : "you either are born again or you'll die". i somehow feel that a group of these "christians" give all of christianity a bad name. also, more recently, another spokesman for the same group stated that president bush better heed their demands or he won't get their vote. i personally feel, that is not the way one wants to spread christianity: i don't think either jesus or god would approve. from what i see in the news and read in the newspapers, this group of people now represents a fairly large block of votes in the U.S. i wonder what percentage of U.S. citizens now consider themselves "born again christians" and also wonder if a majority of them subscribe to this philosophy ? can anyone supply some answers ? hbg
The acronym, BAC can also go in reverse (like in back), but most christians wouldn't know the difference.
Many Protestents speak of having been "reborn," a rebirth into the spirit, something that Joseph Campbell discussed wholeheartedly, outside the box of literalism. Catholics personified this "rebirth" in the Virgin Mary.
We all believed in Santa Claus as children. Later, we found out it was a cute harmless at our expense. Nobody told us that Santa Claus was the personification of the spirit of giving.
So much symbolism in Christianity is a yes or no proposition; you either believe it or you don't. Few realize that there is a much deeper, more beautiful truth underlying these symbols.
There is indeed many truths lieing behind the symbols of Christianity.
Whether they are beautiful or not is open to debate.
truth
Coluber, it just occured to me that Santa Claus may represent for children not the spirit of GIVING but the spirit of RECEIVING. In that sense it is possible that we did not feel betrayed when we discovered the non-existence of SC because we RECEIVED gifts in his name. If the custom were that in the name of Santa Claus toys were TAKEN FROM US to be given to the poor children of the world (in the true spirit of giving) we would then feel very resentful upon learning of the non-existence of Santa Claus.
Islam is repressive
Judaism is racist
Christianity is nonsense
The World is my country, to do good my religion. Thomas Paine.
when jesus went to heaven he first opened the big gates and just walked in. After a while St. Peter called out to him and said, Hey you left the door open....what were you born in a barn ?
High-larious . . . good one, Boss . . .
Hi all ,
It is nice topic to disscus
I think that if Jesus never born the other religons will not exsist i meant Islam because it is the last religion .
And i want to say for the members who said wrong things about Islam please respect the other religions ...
many thanks
This image was taken in 1982 in Brooklyn, NY
I remember the sun came out briefly for the picture. At the last moment though,I decided I wasn't going tophotograph it because I felt it was too obvious.But when that momentary flash of sun fell upom it I quickly took a shot.Remembering Berenice Abbotts warning about overshooting.
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While travelling throughout New Yorks Cemeteries I was pleased and proud to find this creation up in QUeens.Who ever brought this to life with the hooped branch must certainly have the best of hearts.
For all those children who never got to play.
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Spring is Eternal:
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