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What would the World be like if JESUS had never been Born?

 
 
Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2004 08:09 am
I believe the world would be much the same. Jesus' impact was due to the teachings and healings He performed. The teachings were not new in principle, different versions of them had been taught for ages by other Masters. Spiritual healing was not new either. His name lives on because of the formation of the church and the power it attained. Jesus' teachings and healings were given a low place of importance shortly after the formation of the church, and today are hardly remembered at all.

Love
0 Replies
 
melbournian cheese
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Sep, 2004 04:04 am
didn't some roman guy (who's name I continuosly forget) decide that christianity would be 'the new fad' and that being pagan 'was sooooo BC' and then decided to get a whole lot of people to write a bible then give them out to people? I don't really know much about religion (and I don't really want to) but I think it went something like t

Lekatt

you live in OK? what exactly is it like living in an abbreviation of the word 'okay'. I suppose property prices would be OK, and the area would be OK, is it worth moving there? Or would it be better to live in BS?
0 Replies
 
Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Sep, 2004 01:31 pm
melbournian cheese wrote:
didn't some roman guy (who's name I continuosly forget) decide that christianity would be 'the new fad' and that being pagan 'was sooooo BC' and then decided to get a whole lot of people to write a bible then give them out to people? I don't really know much about religion (and I don't really want to) but I think it went something like t

Lekatt

you live in OK? what exactly is it like living in an abbreviation of the word 'okay'. I suppose property prices would be OK, and the area would be OK, is it worth moving there? Or would it be better to live in BS?


I think you are talking about Emperior Constantine of Rome who decided Christianity would be the primary religion of his empire. He did so because he liked the passiveness of the religion. "Love your enemies, and everyone else." That was back in the days when Christians were following the teaching of Jesus. In near death experiences we are finding out that is still the right way to approach God.

As for Oklahoma and OK it's fine. Kind of an ever present affirmation. The property prices here are cheap compared with the coast, either one.

Love
0 Replies
 
Mr Alice Porkrind
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 03:19 pm
Jesus just called me on His cell phone and tells me for all of you to "Get Over It!!!" Over 2000 years and they still pick at His flesh. Must be God envy.
0 Replies
 
furiousflee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 03:23 pm
I believe that the world would not be the same as it is now....Our time is based on the birth of Jesus, talk about impact. Besides that of all the spiritual teacher in the past Jesus was the only one who claimed to be God or the Son of God. Also the ressurection of Jesus impacted the world in ways un-imaginabled we live the way we live due to the birth of Jesus. Just think about it, it is very interesting.
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 05:03 pm
FF, our time is not based on the birth of Jesus. The change between BC and AD was marked by a year scholars once thought Jesus was born. But that year held as true by scholars much anymore. That only shows the impact he had on Roman society anyway.

Also, resurrecting gods or sons of gods is nothing new, and many of the Roman resurrecting gods resemble Jesus, or rather he resembles them. Take a look:

http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/bl_saviors.htm?once=true&

You can read up on the ones mentioned from those pictures and see how similar some of their stories are. They're not entirely similar, but the archetypal factors are the same.

Do the Hindus live the way they live because of Jesus?

I'll save you the trouble of looking up those names. If you're interested, here's a comparison from the same site:

http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa052902a.htm
0 Replies
 
Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 06:04 pm
furiousflee wrote:
I believe that the world would not be the same as it is now....Our time is based on the birth of Jesus, talk about impact. Besides that of all the spiritual teacher in the past Jesus was the only one who claimed to be God or the Son of God. Also the ressurection of Jesus impacted the world in ways un-imaginabled we live the way we live due to the birth of Jesus. Just think about it, it is very interesting.



Not to discourage, but Jesus never claimed to be God. In several verses He talked of God as we talk of God. I think the issue can be resolved by reading the whole Bible, especially the New Testament.

The core of Christianity is to love one another.

Love
0 Replies
 
Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 06:10 pm
dauer wrote:
FF, our time is not based on the birth of Jesus. The change between BC and AD was marked by a year scholars once thought Jesus was born. But that year held as true by scholars much anymore. That only shows the impact he had on Roman society anyway.

Also, resurrecting gods or sons of gods is nothing new, and many of the Roman resurrecting gods resemble Jesus, or rather he resembles them. Take a look:

http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/bl_saviors.htm?once=true&

You can read up on the ones mentioned from those pictures and see how similar some of their stories are. They're not entirely similar, but the archetypal factors are the same.

Do the Hindus live the way they live because of Jesus?

I'll save you the trouble of looking up those names. If you're interested, here's a comparison from the same site:

http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa052902a.htm


I am not a member of any organized religion. Having said that I can say historical studies of any religion doesn't explain the value and worth of the organization. That lies in the good accomplished.

Love
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 06:28 pm
I agree, Lekatt, but in that case I give Christianity a D.

My point is that without the "resurrection of Jesus" it's far too likely people would be instead talking about another Roman deity and thinking to the "resurrection of Dionysus." It hardly speaks to how Jesus affected anything. He just took the place of other characters.

Although in that case, to be fair, if people weren't being killed in the name of Jesus it would be in the name of Dionysus or someone else. His name just displaced another, his stories displaced similar ones. They were not new and therefore didn't greatly effect -- in the sense of being a catalyst -- the world.
0 Replies
 
Algis Kemezys
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 06:43 pm
I think we would have followed another religion that was handy,might it have Moslem?
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 06:56 pm
Islam didn't exist. It formed later and incorporated Jesus into its theology as a prophet. But there were a number of Roman mystery religions. Islam would not have had access to Roman society in the way that Christianity did.
0 Replies
 
Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 08:51 pm
dauer wrote:
I agree, Lekatt, but in that case I give Christianity a D.

My point is that without the "resurrection of Jesus" it's far too likely people would be instead talking about another Roman deity and thinking to the "resurrection of Dionysus." It hardly speaks to how Jesus affected anything. He just took the place of other characters.

Although in that case, to be fair, if people weren't being killed in the name of Jesus it would be in the name of Dionysus or someone else. His name just displaced another, his stories displaced similar ones. They were not new and therefore didn't greatly effect -- in the sense of being a catalyst -- the world.


In the beginning it was different. The followers of Jesus did actually love one another and followed the teaching of Jesus. But over time the movement became a bureaucracy with all the political power struggles that entails. The teachings were forgotten or moved to a back burner. This happens with all our organizations. It is our own blindness that causes this to happen. But a few do catch on, walk the path of love and graduate from this school we call earth. It serves it's purpose. In their own time all will graduate.

Love
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 09:33 pm
Can you prove that in the begining it was different? The gospels are brimming with hate-speech towards Jews, Pharisees, and and especially the Sages. Nor does Jesus seem particularly tolerant of gentiles, although I'm sure there are explanations for that.
0 Replies
 
Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2004 06:38 am
dauer wrote:
Can you prove that in the begining it was different? The gospels are brimming with hate-speech towards Jews, Pharisees, and and especially the Sages. Nor does Jesus seem particularly tolerant of gentiles, although I'm sure there are explanations for that.



Jesus did not write anything, what we have are what other people said He said. I suspect it is not all correct and accurate. But there is enough of it to understand that Jesus was a man of great love and compassion. He felt this expecially for the sick. He taught love and peace. His followers also espoused love and peace in the early days. We have the writings of other scholars at the time to show this. When the Christians were put in with the Lions in the arena they frequently knelt and prayed, showed no fear and sometimes the Lions would just sniff at them and go on to others who screamed and ran. There was also the fact that Emperior Constantine of Rome made Christianity the official religion of his empire due to the peaceful nature of the Christians.

In today's churches you can still find real Christians filled with love and compassion for their fellow man, but they are few, compared to those that claim Christianity. Believing in the passion of the Christ will avail you nought. It is how you treat your fellow man that determines your place in the after life.

Love
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2004 10:55 am
If all we have is what other people said about Jesus, passed by word of mouth, how do we know anything at all? It's the same problem someone might have trying to understand the historical Baal Shem Tov, the supposed founder of Hasidism. In fact, Jesus is even more difficult. We have the writings of people who actually knew the Besht and records that account for his residence. The words of Jesus can also be understood as the words of other people that were put in his mouth.

How was he a man of great love and compassion when he was so harsh according to the texts to gentiles and so often slandered the Jews around him? When you pluck out the compassion you deny history.

What othar scholars are you talking about? One person referenced to about Jesus, as an outside scholar, is Josephus, but the only manuscript of his that records such information was in the hands of the Church. All of the others make no mention at all. If they doctored that text you can bet they doctored others. So saying that about lions is thinking with your wants instead of your mind, trying to fill a desire.

Constantine's conversion is a subject of contraversy.

quote:

The religion of Constantine the Great, while generally assumed to be Christian in view of his pro-Christian policies, is disputed.


Bronze coins struck for emperors often reveal details of their personal iconography. During the early part of Constantine's rule, representations first of Mars and then (from 310) of Apollo as Sun god consistently appear on the reverse of the coinage. Mars had been associated with the Tetrarchy, and Constantine's use of this symbolism served to emphasize the legitimacy of his rule. After his breach with his father's old colleague Maximian in 309-10, Constantine began to claim legitimate descent from the 3rd century emperor Claudius Gothicus, the hero of the Battle of Naissus. Gothicus had claimed the divine protection of Apollo-Sol. In 310 Constantine reportedly experienced a vision in which Apollo-Sol appeared to him with omens of success. Thereafter the reverses of his coinage were dominated for several years by his "companion, the unconquered Sol" -- the inscriptions read SOLI INVICTO COMITI. The depiction of his personal tutelary god represents Apollo with a solar halo, Helios-like, and the globe in his hands. According to a number of historians and researchers, this is the god Constantine embraced with the omen at the Milvian Bridge (the deity of this omen was not publicly identified at the time): a syncretic sun god, Sol Invictus, with relations to Mithraism, which had many common points with Christianity.


Another aspect of Constantine that might indicate an incomplete acceptance of Christianity (from a modern view) was his notorious cruelty: he executed his own wife and eldest son in 326 for unknown reasons. He also had Licinius, the East Roman emperor, strangled after his defeat, something he had publicly promised not to do.

endquote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_of_the_Roman_Empire

He was cruel and, although following a mystery religion, it may not have been Christianity. Church history, of course, would have you believe otherwise.

I never denied there weren't real Christians striving for an ideal that was at some time created. And some would argue faith over deeds, right?
0 Replies
 
Algis Kemezys
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2004 02:18 pm
and all this for what ? what if Jesus was an Merman and the other travelling Magi might have been as well.
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2004 02:42 pm
Then I want to see a mer-body or mer-skeleton or mer-fossil.
0 Replies
 
Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2004 03:19 pm
dauer wrote:
If all we have is what other people said about Jesus, passed by word of mouth, how do we know anything at all? It's the same problem someone might have trying to understand the historical Baal Shem Tov, the supposed founder of Hasidism. In fact, Jesus is even more difficult. We have the writings of people who actually knew the Besht and records that account for his residence. The words of Jesus can also be understood as the words of other people that were put in his mouth.

How was he a man of great love and compassion when he was so harsh according to the texts to gentiles and so often slandered the Jews around him? When you pluck out the compassion you deny history.

What othar scholars are you talking about? One person referenced to about Jesus, as an outside scholar, is Josephus, but the only manuscript of his that records such information was in the hands of the Church. All of the others make no mention at all. If they doctored that text you can bet they doctored others. So saying that about lions is thinking with your wants instead of your mind, trying to fill a desire.

Constantine's conversion is a subject of contraversy.

quote:

The religion of Constantine the Great, while generally assumed to be Christian in view of his pro-Christian policies, is disputed.


Bronze coins struck for emperors often reveal details of their personal iconography. During the early part of Constantine's rule, representations first of Mars and then (from 310) of Apollo as Sun god consistently appear on the reverse of the coinage. Mars had been associated with the Tetrarchy, and Constantine's use of this symbolism served to emphasize the legitimacy of his rule. After his breach with his father's old colleague Maximian in 309-10, Constantine began to claim legitimate descent from the 3rd century emperor Claudius Gothicus, the hero of the Battle of Naissus. Gothicus had claimed the divine protection of Apollo-Sol. In 310 Constantine reportedly experienced a vision in which Apollo-Sol appeared to him with omens of success. Thereafter the reverses of his coinage were dominated for several years by his "companion, the unconquered Sol" -- the inscriptions read SOLI INVICTO COMITI. The depiction of his personal tutelary god represents Apollo with a solar halo, Helios-like, and the globe in his hands. According to a number of historians and researchers, this is the god Constantine embraced with the omen at the Milvian Bridge (the deity of this omen was not publicly identified at the time): a syncretic sun god, Sol Invictus, with relations to Mithraism, which had many common points with Christianity.


Another aspect of Constantine that might indicate an incomplete acceptance of Christianity (from a modern view) was his notorious cruelty: he executed his own wife and eldest son in 326 for unknown reasons. He also had Licinius, the East Roman emperor, strangled after his defeat, something he had publicly promised not to do.

endquote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_of_the_Roman_Empire

He was cruel and, although following a mystery religion, it may not have been Christianity. Church history, of course, would have you believe otherwise.

I never denied there weren't real Christians striving for an ideal that was at some time created. And some would argue faith over deeds, right?


All of history is written by men, we don't have proof any of it is real unless we lived it, right. I did not say anything about the religion of Constantine, he wanted Christianity to be the official religion of the empire due to its peaceful nature. It made his job of governing much easier, as for himself, who knows.

There are other references to Jesus besides Josephus. When I was in college I did a term paper on the "Historical Jesus" and found more references.

Jesus followed what He preached to the end, dying instead of fighting His enemies. He had trouble with the Jewish clergy who tried to trap him in breaking their doctrinal law. He answered them well in my opinion.

Now, I believe Jesus was one of the most important spiritual teachers in history. He stated His teachings in parables, and also in straight forward commands. Any one who follows His teachings, not Him, will quickly understand how powerful He was and how He got to be so. Unfortunately Christianity today is a pale shadow of what Jesus taught, and sometimes just an excuse for bad conduct.

Love
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2004 04:04 pm
All of History is written by man, and it is these writings that we use to base our understanding of History. When there are a few writing that show up that don't agree with the others, they are most likely false, especially if they are different versions of the exact same documents.

It is not clear that Constantine converted to promote peace. I am quoting from the same wikipedia page:

"Christian historians ever since Lactantius have adhered to the view that Constantine "adopted" Christianity as a kind of replacement for the official Roman paganism. Though the document called the "Donation of Constantine" was proved a forgery (though not until the 15th century, when the stories of Constantine's conversion were long-established "facts") it was attributed as documenting the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity for centuries. Even Christian skeptics have accepted this formulation, though seeing Constantine's policy as a political rather than spiritual move."

-- so the text that most strongly supported this idea was a fake --

What gives you evidence for the reason Constantine gave new rights to Christianity? His soldiers worshipped Isis and Mithras and saw Christianity as "womanish." How would this promote peace? If anything it put him in the favorable eyes of the growingly powerful and popular church.

What are you references? What years are they? Whose hands did they pass through?

Did Jesus follow what he preached? He told people to obey the Pharisees because they sat in the seat of Moses, and then he didn't even obey the written torah. He disrupted temple practice, making it difficult for people to fulfill their commandments. He slandered his neighbors publically, called a gentile a dog. If it satisfies your faith to say he followed what he preached, and find ways to deny that any of this happened, so be it.

Perhaps he did die and this was not just his injection into an all-too-known piece of History. The Romans crucified hundreds of Jews. Pilate was a vicious man. Some of them died instead of fighting, some of them fought. It is not unique.

Jesus didn't just break the laws of the rabbis, who he said anyway sat in the seat of moses, but also laws of the torah that need no spelling out. There were no traps set. He lived in a land and disobeyed. His answers are horrible. Rather than speaking for himself or defending his position, he points his finger and says, "But they did it." And quite often he's wrong in his references anyway.

The thing about parables and laws, this was the normal way of Jewish teaching at the time for the Pharisees. Halakhah is law, aggadah is moral stories and maxims. This was not original.

His teachings were mostly not new. He didn't bring much to the table. Why did you say not him, when you said before that he followed what he preached to the end? How do you know these were his teachings and in light of other things he said is he not a hypocrite, as he said often of his neighbors?
0 Replies
 
Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2004 08:02 pm
I now suspect you are of the Jewish faith, since you misquote so much of Jesus' teachings and Christianity in general. Feels to me like you have an agenda. It's ok, I am not a Christian. I don't belong to any organized religion. I have no quarrel with any faith.

I had a near death experience, and learned from it that love is the only important thing. Since I was raised Christian I use the faith I know the best to bring forth the importance of love one another.

The beliefs of mankind across this world is so diverse, and complex, the only place we can all meet together is in the brotherhood of love one another. It is the basic element of all faiths. In the near death experience you see the oneness of all things held in the unconditional love of the Creator. The experience is awesome and leaves the experiencer with no doubt that only love is the answer.

Love
0 Replies
 
 

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