21
   

Why would abortion after rape be ok?

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 12:33 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Joe,

Abortion takes a life. We argue about whether it is a human life or not, but it is a life.

Depends on how you define "life."

maxdancona wrote:
There are many people who don't believe a fetus has rights and don't feel it is "murder" to have an abortion, but still feel deeply troubled by the practice.

That's fine. I don't want to visit a slaughterhouse, but I'm perfectly happy with eating meat. But then that's really an esthetic issue more than anything else. I'm not so sure you want to put abortion on that same level.

maxdancona wrote:
That is what the it means to be in the middle.

It means that anyone in the middle is confused?

maxdancona wrote:
The arguments you are putting forward are straw man arguments. Many people believe that abortions should be available for emergencies. They don't hold the opinions you are arguing against.

I'm not putting forward any arguments, I'm merely pointing out some inconsistencies in the arguments you've put forward. Frankly, I don't understand how someone could argue that a woman's motivation for having an abortion should play any role in deciding whether she should be allowed to have one or not. If you can make that argument, I'd be eager to hear it.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 01:10 pm
Personally I think the rights of the born child trump those of the unborn/potential child every time. Instead of trying to control women's bodies they should think about the real life children who die from preventable diseases every day.

Quote:
The burden

In 2008, WHO estimated that 1.5 million of deaths among children under 5 years were due to diseases that could have been prevented by routine vaccination. This represents 17% of global total mortality in children under 5 years of age


http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/en/
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 01:26 pm
@izzythepush,
Well written Sir Izzy. Surprised
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 05:03 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

chai2 wrote:
I wouldn't want someone to rip me apart


Why have you started up an "Abortion is wicked" vs "No it isn't" discussion where you can be emotive and strident, when all you are doing is banging a drum and wasting everybody's time?




You're funny.

You can actually tell from my typing characters on a screen what my voice would be like if I were actually vocalizing?

In fact, I wasn't feeling strident, as you put it, and if I was saying those words, it would have been in a monotone, a low one at that.

I haven't said anywhere here what I think about abortion, whether it's wicked or not.

What am am is puzzled why someone, like the person I was talking to could make it a moral issue if a woman became pregnant because, as she put it "spread her legs" i.e. enjoyed herself, and should therefore suffer the consequences to herself and the child by giving birth to it....but, if the woman were forced, then no moral issue exists.

Sorry, I'm not going to rise to your bait contrex.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 05:05 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Do you not feel one can discuss abortion without bringing religion


No...


That's unfortunate. I can.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 05:21 pm
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:

chai2 wrote:

The fetus didn't have any say so in its conception regardless of rape, incest or consensual sex.

Neither does your spleen, your appendix, or your gall bladder have a say if you needed to have them removed surgically because of medical complications. Do you ask permission from your fingernails before you clip them? Have they ever given you explicit permission to trim them or even paint them?



My spleen or fingernails are never going to develop, if left alone, into a sentient being that will tell me anything.

A fetus is in my (as a woman) body, but it not part of it. Left to itself, in an extremely short time it will develop into something that will be able to make its needs and desires known.

A tumor is not part of my body either, but no matter how long it's in me, its not going to become anything other than a tumor. Hmmm, wait a minute, a tumor is actually part of my body, but it's the best example I can give at the moment.

That said, I do believe a fetus, as opposed to an embryo, has rights. In transitioning from an embryo to a fetus, the fetus's own organs start to function.

Everyone draws a line from life at the moment of conception, to a partial birth abortion of a fetus of 39 weeks. I draw mine prior to when the fetus could survive on its own, starting at the point where it is starting it's own bodily functions, around the 8 week mark.



chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 05:22 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

No. I don't buy your argument Chai.


I wasn't selling it.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 05:24 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

How do you feel about capital punishment, Chai?



Why not start your own thread asking what people feelings are about it, and perhaps I'll think about responding to it, but not here.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 05:38 pm
@chai2,
wow...I think I just figured out who tagged this religion.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 05:43 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

OMG . . . did you actually read and take in Chai's initial post?

Quote:
The conversation was over essentially by then, we both moved on. However, thinking about it, it seems that her idea was that if a woman got pregnant by voluntarily having sex (never mind that any birth control can fail) she needs to, well, be punished by being forced to have the child, a child not wanted. But when the woman is forced to have sex, it's fine to say the fetus doesn't have rights.
If the fetus doesn't have rights, what difference do the circumstances make?
Does the fetus have no rights if it's the result of rape, but has rights if it's the result of voluntary sex?






Right....it did not seem that morals had anything to do with abortion, but with the morality of having sex by one's own choice, and getting away with it.

God forbid she enjoyed it, that hussy.
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 06:09 pm
10 ancient methods for pregnancy prevention and abortion inducement.

http://listverse.com/2010/11/14/10-ancient-methods-of-birth-control/

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 06:12 pm
@chai2,
Quote:
Everyone draws a line from life at the moment of conception, to a partial birth abortion of a fetus of 39 weeks. I draw mine prior to when the fetus could survive on its own, starting at the point where it is starting it's own bodily functions, around the 8 week mark.


Hmmm.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 06:35 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Frankly, I don't understand how someone could argue that a woman's motivation for having an abortion should play any role in deciding whether she should be allowed to have one or not.


Joe, but you are misstating the argument a bit.

The argument for the rape exception is a recognition of severity of rape, nothing else. There is no other consideration of a "woman's motivation" that would be considered.

Rape is so horrible that people who otherwise think abortion should be illegal believe there should be an exception.

I don't see what is illogical about that.



chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 06:38 pm
@maxdancona,
Actually no max, you're the one missing the point (as there is no argument going on in any event, except in your head)

Actually joe has a good point, in that it shouldn't play a role. Apparently though, it did with the woman I was speaking to, so I'd guess it plays a role in other people's head too.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 06:46 pm
@chai2,
Chai,

You are also in the middle? I guess I misread your original post, particularly the last line threw me off.

It now appears you are against abortions after 8 weeks. That puts you in the middle. You are willing to outlaw some abortions and make an exception for others (even though the exception you make is different than the exception the woman in your post made).

The only thing I am pointing out is that the issue is not as cut and dry as the people on this thread seem to want it to be.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 06:54 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


Rape is so horrible that people who otherwise think abortion should be illegal believe there should be an exception.



This is another extreme I'd like to address, about rape.

I'm not going to say rape can't be a horrible experience, there are many times it is.

I've been raped, so have a large proportion of the women I've known and been friends with. If you're a man, probably a much larger number than you'd care to imagine.

Was it a great experience? No.

Was it "horrible", as in this is just the worst thing in the world?

Not exactly.

I've had a LOT worse things happen in my life, some of them that have happened very recently.

I didn't want it, but it happened. I am very resilient.
Did it destroy my life? Hell no. Didn't make sense to me to let something like that change my world.
Maybe it'd have been different if I'd been held at gunpoint, been beaten half to death, etc. Those are the extremes a lot of people want to think all rapes are like.

They're not all like that, every rape is different.

So I can't automatically use the reasoning that because one was raped, it would be such a traumatic experience it would be completely understandable if you got pregnant, to terminate it.

Talk about black and white....jeez. Like every rape was so horrible if you were pregnant it would be natural to want to get rid of it.

chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 06:55 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are willing to outlaw some abortions and make an exception for others


Where did I say anything about wanting to outlaw anything? Or make exceptions for anything? Where have I said I'm against abortions, or in favor of them for anyone?

Are the voices in your head telling you I said this?
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 07:00 pm
@chai2,
Let me get this straight. You are arguing that the rape exception in proposed anti-abortion legislation is illogical because rape is not always that horrible?

I don't know how to respond.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 07:09 pm
@chai2,
You said you were against abortions past a certain stage of development (8 weeks). Did I misunderstand?

Do you think that abortions should be outlawed after a certain time into the pregnancy? Or do you think that abortions should be legal, even at 39 weeks?
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Apr, 2013 07:11 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The argument for the rape exception is a recognition of severity of rape, nothing else.

I have no doubt. But if your position on abortion is based primarily on your visceral reaction to the circumstances of the fetus's conception, then your position is fundamentally esthetic. As such, it is little different from saying that you oppose abortion because it's "icky."

maxdancona wrote:
There is no other consideration of a "woman's motivation" that would be considered.

My comment was directed at your statement regarding the "callous ending of a pregnancy for family planning." That's taking a position regarding the woman's motivation.

maxdancona wrote:
Rape is so horrible that people who otherwise think abortion should be illegal believe there should be an exception.

I don't see what is illogical about that.

It's no so much illogical as anti-logical. As I said, it's essentially an esthetic position.
 

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