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Why would abortion after rape be ok?

 
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 03:19 pm
@ehBeth,
He didn't say, and neither did I, All medical decisions.

It's not an all or nothing, unfortunately for you, there is gray.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 03:24 pm
@chai2,
I'm on another site right now taking a drivers ed course because I ran a red light.

Right now, I'm at the drunk driving section.

So, it's up to me if I want to get drunk and drive, and take any number of people out?

Getting drunk is a medical decision, same as deciding to take drugs. Sure you can say I have to be accountable for my actions, but that doesn't help the people I killed.

What I don't buy is the instant you turn 18 (in the u.s.) you totally capable of making all decisions for yourself, but not one minute before.

Same as saying it's not a person until the moment it's out of the uterus, into the world.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 03:46 pm
I've been thinking about this.

If my action is going to, or has the strong potential of hurting someone else, I don't mind having someone tell me I can't, or at the least strongly dissuade me from doing it.
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contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 03:47 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
I would definitely not be cool with any government or anyone in this thread having a say in my medical decisions.

Who decides where the line is for someone else is for cosmetic surgery? when does the definition of cosmetic surgery slide into cosmetic alteration?



I wrote about 'regulating' - not 'banning'. There have been a number of cosmetic surgery scandals involving inadequately trained surgeons working for "boob job factories", poor quality of surgery, defective breast implants, patients with psychiatric conditions seeking repeated procedures and being accepted, advertising campaigns targeting 17 year olds with SMS messages saying "In less than a year's time you'll be able to have cosmetic surgery.'"

Planned restrictions may include tighter restrictions on advertising including banning two-for-one or time-limited deals, and cosmetic surgery as competition prizes, and a two-stage written consent process so that people have time to reflect. Victims groups have demanded that patients receive better information before making their decision, for example photographs showing expected bruising and scarring.

Also there may be restrictions on ruinously expensive loans touted by companies linked to, or owned by the surgery companies.

I don't think these ideas are excessive. Maybe where you come from they might seem like too much government interference, in which case don't come to live in Europe. (Not that you can just move here anyhow)
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 03:56 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:
(Not that you can just move here anyhow)


Actually I can but that's not the issue, is it.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 03:59 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:
I wrote about 'regulating' - not 'banning'.


I didn't use either of those terms so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I'm talking about the problems of shades of grey in these issues. If there are going to be shades of grey, who decides which shade of grey is the right one - and how do they rationalize them.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 04:04 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:


I wrote about 'regulating' - not 'banning'.

I don't think these ideas are excessive. Maybe where you come from they might seem like too much government interference, in which case don't come to live in Europe. (Not that you can just move here anyhow)



Yeah, that's the word I was looking for, regulating.

I don't think they're excessive either, and I live in "the land of the free and the home of the brave"

Humans as a whole are smart....there's a lot of individuals that are dumber than a box of rocks...i.e. using your cosmetic surgery example. I remember telling more than one person what I paid for my lasik (in fact, also telling people what I paid for my permanent eyebrow/eyeliner makeup) and more than one person saying something to the effect of "I could go to so-and-so and get that for half the amount"

Yeah....you pay $4 for a haircut, you get a $4 haircut, in general.

In college, I had to move into a different dorm over a summer, and one of the girls there blew me away.


0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 04:18 pm
whoops, hit reply by mistake.

By that time, (she was 21-21) she'd had THREE abortions!

I was younger and more naive then, but even now this surprises me.

I asked her about her experiences, she had no qualms discussing it at all. I realized it was because she hadn't even thought through was she'd done. I know, I know, but she really was that extreme bad example of "Pregnant? Just get an abortion."
I remember asking her "What was it like? What happens?" Meaning more of "did it hurt, do you regret it, would you do it again" etc.

Swear to God, the first thing she said when I asked her what happens was "Well, they give you these socks to wear, with those non-skid bottoms." It wasn't like she was glossing over the procedure part, just that she considered keeping her feet warm right up there with having her uterus scraped.
When she got to talking about the 2nd one, it was more of the same, and I was just sitting there speechless. When she started talking about the third, I got confused thinking she was retelling about parts of the first 2.

Not only had she not learned anything practical from getting an abortion, i.e. use BC, she really didn't think any more of it than, as Tsar said, clipping her fingernails. Well, I didn't exactly know that at that moment, but spending the next 8 weeks living in the same dorm with her....I learned a lot.
She truly was a stupid stupid person.

Yeah, I do think her rights to do what she wanted to with her body was a complete mockery to having a brain inside your head.

One can say most people aren't like her, but an awful lot, more than most of us would care to think, are.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 04:22 pm
My best hair cut, when someone actually listened to me, was in a mall, ten dollars.
Unfortunately, the next time I saw him, he forgot all that.

I understand all of the permutations of the shades of gray. I am in weasel city about the last months, but not definite yet and am hanging in with the 'patient's right'.. women's right.

I could go on with the pros and cons but not today.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 04:57 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
I'm talking about the problems of shades of grey in these issues. If there are going to be shades of grey, who decides which shade of grey is the right one - and how do they rationalize them.


There are no shades of grey if life begins at conception. We can talk about shades of grey forever.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 05:03 pm
@chai2,
Why not shops on the High Street chai? Brat Gone inc.
0 Replies
 
ShadowKnight
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 10:19 pm
@chai2,
First of all, excuse me for not reading more than the question itself, I am dead sleepy, and at the same time haven't been able to get some sleep, so my reply will simply be based on the top question.

I believe it could be okay for example because the mother may give birth to a baby which is a constant reminder of the day she was terribly raped, which again, most likely would make her despise or at some level dislike or even fear her newborn.

The newborn has no blame in this of course, but if that baby is mistreated, or even to be treated well, being a constant reminder that his mother was raped... Sounds terrible to me.

I believe that a death before the conscience develops is a act of mercy, rather than to be born in a life likely to bring suffering.

I mean, if the pregnant victim was screaming "I want it dead! I want it gone! Its that rapist`s child! Remove it! Kill it please!

Would you have the heart to force her to have it? Knowing both her and the infant are potentially doomed to live terrible lives?

In the end, what is a being without conscience, and what is conscience if it is meant to suffer from the start...

There are many reasons for abortion, but one must stop generalizing, because there are many reasons which are right, and many which are dead wrong, I mean some use abortion as a replacement for condoms... that is just cruelty.

Who to judge? Someone that does not generalize, who that may be? Well our world seems to grow and expand to grasp and use such concepts... And who it will be? Heh... we are all biased, so in the end no one is fit to decide.

Or is there? Who knows.

My opinion is of course based on ensuing the best for both the mother and the baby, and the fact that generalizing will get us nowhere, we are too distinct, excuses are not just excuses, some are in fact excellent reasons, while some are total bs.


I wonder why I am the only one that thinks this way... (as far as I know).
0 Replies
 
ShadowKnight
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 10:29 pm
@spendius,
If that life at conception is doomed to suffer in the arms of a mother that hates the child for being the "spawn" (looking from her potential perception), of the man that raped her, then there are indeed no grays...

Just black, horrible, bad, suffering, etc, needless suffering for both mother and child.

And what are morals, if the right morals right as they may be, bring misery to all?

Not gray, simply pitch black, I believe that a fetus, even with a developed conscience, is better left unborn, than to live only to suffer.

I mean what gift is conscience, if it is only given to bring on suffer for the infant and the mother...

Its a curse, better begone.

Of course, I am not a man of morals, I am a man that believe in happiness, at any cost.
0 Replies
 
ShadowKnight
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2013 10:31 pm
@roger,
The question is if the fetus has the right to be born of a mother that despises it for being a constant reminder of her being raped, which will bring suffering not only to the innocent child, but also the mother.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2013 12:15 am
@ShadowKnight,
No, the question is whether or not the fetus has a right to be born. That last dot was a period.
ShadowKnight
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2013 12:31 am
@roger,
Ah I see... as for the right, I believe it has as much right to be born, as it has to be happy, if being the son of a raped mother which hates you, then you have the right of course... But does right make things okay in this case? I mean now that I read the story I dont want to judge either way, but I feel sorry for both the mom and the baby once its born, its not like you take good care of what reminds you of the cruel rape.

And even if she takes good care of it, the newborn being a constant reminder is a painful way for both to go.

The hell, I say abortion is right in some cases, in this case let her take abortion if she needs it, the poor infant wont have much of a future, and in worst case scenario end up freezing to death in a empty dumpster. We can pretend its not, but its a cruel world.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2013 03:19 am
@ShadowKnight,
How do you guess the kid hasn't "much of a future"?

If you're going to have a worst case scenario why not a best?
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2013 05:30 am
@ShadowKnight,
ShadowKnight wrote:

The question is if the fetus has the right to be born of a mother that despises it for being a constant reminder of her being raped, which will bring suffering not only to the innocent child, but also the mother.


Have you heard of the concept of giving the baby up for adoption?

Or do you want to prevent the mother the heartache of knowing the unwanted (by her) child, someday adult, is out there somewhere living with people that do want and love it?

Do I think it reasonable for a woman to "endure" a few months of pregnancy and some hours of labor to give the baby to someone else who wants it, so they can go ahead and live 70, 80, 90 plus years of their own life?

Yes.

ShadowKnight
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2013 07:21 am
@spendius,
Its not guessing, in a profession such as mine you quickly learn to analyze and understand.

Why would the mother love the baby she was forced to give birth to? The baby which is made from the sperm of the man that raped her? Now, you think she is going to love her rapee child? And what is a baby with a loveless mother...

Can you see what I mean now? She may even dump the poor thing in a dumpster, and people most would blame her, I would not, I would pity the baby which had no guilt... But as for the mother... how hard can you treat someone impregnated with a constant reminder of the terrible rape she was trough? Take a ride in her shoes, and you would do no better.

Its all human, its sad, but the percent of that mother learning (LEARNING) to love her baby, and treating it well while being reminded every day that she got him/she by rape, and then the kid grows up to look "just like daddy"

The horror!
0 Replies
 
ShadowKnight
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2013 07:32 am
@chai2,
Yeah because adopting is so easy, that thousands of babies die abandoned in dumpsters... Hey lets just sit on our rich asses and assume everyone can do it.

Have I heard... dont insult me with your lack of vision narrow minded one...

Now, while I see your point, I deny you the right to take the choice for her, that does not make her the egoistical bastard in this scenario, actually it makes you said creature.

Have you endured carrying the constant reminder of your rape for nine months? Will you endure one day meeting the man that raped you, only to discover that "whoops" its your son that looks just like his "daddy the raper"...

And why would the ones that adopt the baby necessarily be any better? There are no guarantees, except the ones I mention below, that you wont be the person carrying said baby... You speak as if pregnancy was such an easy thing, that is narrow minded ignorance.

Please... ok, so you think its wrong, I think its up to her, you wanted my opinion, my explanation, here you go:

1. Its her choice, dont stick your "morality" full nose where it does not belong.

2. Yes it is perfectly reasonable to want abortion, again, you have no right to decide nor even consider interfering, that would make you a egoistical son of a shedog.

3. If that does not suffice, then I leave you alone with your ignorance, arrogance, and old as **** morals that have no place in a modern society, and if you interfere, may your kind die, as that baby deserves a life yes, but at the cost of his mothers? Are you going to find good people to adopt the baby? And help the pregnant lady trough everything a pregnant woman (carrying the child of her rapist) trough her extremely difficult challenges? In that case you are my hero.

No? Then mind your own business.

Dont reply, I am done speaking to you, I hope you learn things, and you probably will, the hard way.
0 Replies
 
 

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