9
   

"There was two Mini Cooper parked in front of my house", or "there WERE two mini coopers"?

 
 
MattDavis
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 07:44 pm
@JTT,
I think the question deserves discussion. It seems that you have, at least inferred, a major problem with prescriptive teaching because it perpetuates a "lie".
The "lie" about what language is. I am just curious at which point we should be teaching linguistic theory to children.
Admittedly I am not "up to speed" as you say with the issue at hand. I wonder how terribly much it has stunted by intellectual growth, to be so ignorant in the ways of my language.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 11:03 pm
@MattDavis,
Quote:
I think the question deserves discussion.


Then have at 'er, Matt.

Quote:
It seems that you have, at least inferred, a major problem with prescriptive teaching because it perpetuates a "lie".


Not simply inferred, I've stated it flat out, many times. Not a lie, many lies.

Quote:
I am just curious at which point we should be teaching linguistic theory to children.


That's not at issue.

Quote:
Admittedly I am not "up to speed" as you say with the issue at hand. I wonder how terribly much it has stunted by intellectual growth, to be so ignorant in the ways of my language.


There's no reason whatsoever for you, or anyone, to be up to speed, in a conscious sense, on how language works in order to function in your daily life. From the limited interaction, you seem to be as much up to speed in the normal unconscious sense as anyone else here. But that shouldn't be surprising.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 11:15 pm
@JTT,
So am I right in assuming that you disagree with prescriptive teaching because it perpetuates a judgement of persons based on conformity to a linguistic standard?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 11:23 pm
@MattDavis,


Quote:
So am I right in assuming that you disagree with prescriptive teaching because it perpetuates a judgement of persons based on conformity to a linguistic standard?


I don't disagree with aspects of prescriptive teaching.

I disagree with teaching certain prescriptions because they perpetuate a judgement of persons [among other things] based not at all on conformity to a linguistic standard?

I think you really have to get up to speed, Matt. Start here and then we can talk.

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 11:30 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
I think you really have to get up to speed, Matt.

Well... I am here at A2K to learn.
If this is your way of telling me you are willing to teach, then 'thanks'.
If this is your way of telling me that I am not worthy of a discussion with you, then 'peace out'.

I simply see a competing interest in having communication standards, in order to avoid confusion (as when attempting to learn).
I just wanted to explore the interplay of competing interest in the roles language is tasked with.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 11:47 pm
@MattDavis,
This is what I am telling you, Matt. I'm not willing to take the time to go over all the material I think might be necessary for you to engage in a discussion on these issues.

Note I said 'might'. I gave an excellent source that, again, might help you get up to speed, if indeed you need to be brought up to speed.

Quote:
I simply see a competing interest in having communication standards, in order to avoid confusion (as when attempting to learn).
I just wanted to explore the interplay of competing interest in the roles language is tasked with.


Well, go ahead then and explore those things. I'm all ears.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 12:11 am
@JTT,
I did read the Pinkerton paper. Thank you for the link.

It seems to me that prescriptivist teaching has a crystallizing effect on language. It tends to slow natural language development. Languages naturally tend toward changes that are functional (more efficient, more rhythmic, less ambiguous, etc.)

It seems to me, that teaching based on a descriptive study of a language is more malleable. This malleability, however, may not keep the language universal. Just as in any system subject to selection pressures, isolated populations will tend to drift apart (in this case linguistically). Without intimate linguistic contact between English speaking populations the language will split. We may truly become "separated by a common language". This may be great for linguistic researchers, but not so great for other professionals trying to communicate with each other.

Could it be more helpful to have more benevalent mavens?
Mavens who are descriptivists, who monitor the global English language and periodically prescribe the new more efficient form.
laughoutlood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 12:27 am
@MattDavis,
Quote:
Could it be more helpful to have more benevalent mavens?


Valency seeks to bond but can also repel change, curiously.

I'd rather have mavens describe a global language and prescribe a global equity.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 12:38 am
@laughoutlood,
Yes. Typo/Spelling Error. Should read "benevolent" Embarrassed
Thanks for the description, which allowed me to self-prescribe. Wink
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 07:40 am
@JTT,

Quote:
It won't...which is why I do not do it. When I do it, I simply offer what I consider to be the answer they are looking for.


Lying will not help...which is why I do not do it. When I do offer a response to a person who asks a question about grammar, I simply offer what I consider to be the answer they are looking for.

For you to interpret what I wrote the first time as saying that I lie sometimes...is an absurdity.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 08:08 am
@JTT,
Quote:
“Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph should contain no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subject only in outline, but that every word tell.


The Elements of Style, Strunk & White.

All your unsupported assertions, JT, are "unnecessary" because they are circular and, as such, meaningless. And nothing could be more unnecessary than the meaningless. And when a point of view is dependent on the assertion it itself becomes meaningless and thus unnecessary.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 08:56 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
For you to interpret what I wrote the first time as saying that I lie sometimes...is an absurdity.


A huge Freudian slip on your part, Frank. Now you are lying by omission. Why didn't you address this?

++++++++++++++++++

jtt: 1) You've never explained how lying to that person would be of help, Frank.

Frank wrote: It won't...which is why I do not do it. When I do it,

Frank: Jerky on your part to assume the "it" referred to lying.

jtt: You actually understand pronoun referents better than this, Frank, if and when you let your internal grammar do its job. It's only when you get into your prescriptivist clothing that you make egregious errors wrt language use.

Frank: It won't...which is why I do not do it. When I do it

What is the antecedent for the three it pronouns, which I've put in bold to make it easier for you to recognize a pronoun, Frank?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Quote:
Frank: When I do offer a response to a person who asks a question about grammar, I simply offer what I consider to be the answer they are looking for.


Now that's a teacher and a half! Instead of giving an honest answer, one that reflects the truth, one that would actually help the person learn about language, you give "what [you] consider to be the answer they are looking for".

Quote:
I understand all of it. Why do you think that I don't?


If you do understand "it" [do you need to have the antecedent for 'it' repeated, Frank?], why do you continue to suggest it advisable to offer these bits of folklore, developed for screwball reasons [that you, the guy who knows so much about language refuses to actually ever discuss] as sensible options for "the answer they are looking for"?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 09:00 am
@JTT,
JTT...I repeat: For you to interpret my comment as a lie is an absurdity.

But it is an absurdity in which you regularly indulge...so have a ball.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 09:02 am
@spendius,
Quote:
The Elements of Style, Strunk & White.


Good dog, Spendi, is this another one of the language "sources" in your library that has helped you to be the incompetent you are when it comes to describing language issues?

Next you'll be quoting from Fowler.

Quote:
April 17, 2009
50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice
By Geoffrey K. Pullum

April 16 is the 50th anniversary of the publication of a little book that is loved and admired throughout American academe. Celebrations, readings, and toasts are being held, and a commemorative edition has been released.

I won't be celebrating.

The Elements of Style does not deserve the enormous esteem in which it is held by American college graduates. Its advice ranges from limp platitudes to inconsistent nonsense. Its enormous influence has not improved American students' grasp of English grammar; it has significantly degraded it.

http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 09:14 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
One thing is non-standard speech being acceptable on a personal level, whenever one chooses to do so. Another thing is telling a non-native learner of a language that non-standard speech is acceptable, and that prescriptions for standard speech are ignorant of the language. This second instance is derelict and irresponsible.


In your ignorance, Infra, which has caused you to wildly misrepresent both what I have said at A2K and what language science has said and continues to say, you have advanced another common lie. In your case, it's likely just the aforementioned ignorance.

Quote:
The past tense form of "run" is illogical in the face of the regular past tense phoneme of English /ed/ which occurs much more frequently than the various irregular past tense forms of English.


"illogical"? Are you suggesting that the /ed/ rule is logical?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 09:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
You're lying by omission, again, big time, Frank. You, the guy who screams about the need for clarity in writing so that language won't come to wrack and ruin.

Why can't you put that "top of the class" grammar to work now and [actually] address something head on?

Why must it always be obfuscation from you?

[oh ****, I used a passive. Spendi must be digging into his little S&W]
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 09:32 am
@JTT,
Quote:
You're lying by omission, again, big time, Frank.


Yes, yes...I know how happy it makes you feel to call others liars.

Knock yourself out.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 09:40 am
@MattDavis,
Quote:
I did read the Pinkerton [??] paper.


Quote:
It seems to me that prescriptivist teaching has a crystallizing effect on language.


How did you miss the falsehoods/prescriptions that have been advanced for centuries, Matt?

Maybe the word you want is "fossilizing".

Quote:
It seems to me, that teaching based on a descriptive study of a language is more malleable.


If by malleable you mean honest, open to reality based arguments, willing to accept science as the guiding principle for the study of language, then yes, you have hit the nail on the head.


Quote:
This malleability, however, may not keep the language universal. Just as in any system subject to selection pressures, isolated populations will tend to drift apart (in this case linguistically). Without intimate linguistic contact between English speaking populations the language will split. We may truly become "separated by a common language".


It's not the whims of language scientists or accurate descriptions of language use that has already caused this mighty drift to happen, Matt. It is people using the English language in diverse regions and situations.

In spite of the drift we still understand each other.

Quote:
This may be great for linguistic researchers, but not so great for other professionals trying to communicate with each other.


No researcher wishes for such unrealistic parameters. There's more than enough to study with what is, not wishing for what could be.

Quote:
Could it be more helpful to have more benevolent mavens?
Mavens who are descriptivists, who monitor the global English language and periodically prescribe the new more efficient form.


Please go back and read the first few paragraphs in the link I provided, Matt.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 09:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
++++++++++++++++++

jtt: 1) You've never explained how lying to that person would be of help, Frank.

Frank wrote: It won't...which is why I do not do it. When I do it,

Frank: Jerky on your part to assume the "it" referred to lying.

jtt: You actually understand pronoun referents better than this, Frank, if and when you let your internal grammar do its job. It's only when you get into your prescriptivist clothing that you make egregious errors wrt language use.

Frank: It won't...which is why I do not do it. When I do it

What is the antecedent for the three it pronouns, which I've not put in bold this time because a top notch student of grammar would not need such assistance, right, Frank?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 09:58 am
@JTT,
JTT...several people have advised me that attempting to be reasonable with you would not work...and would lead to frustration.

I don't allow myself to get frustrated...but my attempts at being reasonable have not worked.

I've explained myself...but your need to call me a liar trumps anything I've said...so, I am not going to take your seriously anymore.

Continue to be obsessed with me...and to indulge your need to call me a liar. I'll be here for you.
 

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