9
   

"There was two Mini Cooper parked in front of my house", or "there WERE two mini coopers"?

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 02:37 pm
@spendius,
Sorry, you jumped in before I could paste
http://able2know.org/topic/208683-1

...and the French will be French ! Wink
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 02:53 pm
@fresco,
Thanks. There is a category of ignorance that is willing to receive the knowledge and with an unwillingness to make the effort to do so. A large number of people are in that category.

They use what Sterne called "brilliantine" words to close the gap so that witnesses gain the impression that they have made the effort. This site is over-loaded with instances of that nature. Such as c.i's use of such terms as "quantum theory", "evolution","abortion" "the money supply" and "women". A casual observer gains the impression that they know what they are talking about; are not ignorant. Questioning them causes the willing disregard to kick in. That is pig **** ignorant.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:01 pm
@spendius,
Of course, in some circles, it would be pig **** ignorant to question them rather than them slamming the willing disregard button with the veins in their temples pulsating like a fire hose does when the water is first switched on and comes in fits and starts before settling down into a steady flow.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:07 pm
Apparently, people are still doing that google search stupidity to attempt to justify usage. It therefore needs to be pointed out just how stupid that method is. No matter how many "hits" one gets, the person searching doesn't know how many iterations that represents. If someone writes a popular blog, for example, they could post the most egregious bullshit, and then 99 others quote that bullshit, making it a single instance of a usage, the reliability of which is not known, but with one hundred iterations. The searcher does not know how many "hits" are from native speakers, and how many from people who are not native speakers. The searcher does not know the educational background of the "hits" he or she is getting. Finally, the searcher can't know how many "hits" and iterations could be examples given of what not to write or say. Doing a web search for usage is an incredibly dull-witted method.

"If 50 million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

-- Anatole France.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:09 pm
@spendius,
According to Evelyn Waugh, Aldous Huxley, Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Anthony Eden, Frank Harris, assorted generals and probably many others I haven't noticed, Americans do not question these things. They don't expect anybody will do because they don't do it themselves. They might think it mind you. And they only move in circles where such good manners are mandatory. I think it was Waugh who said that they don't expect anybody to listen to what they say. Which he thought quite decent of them.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:17 pm
This thread is a classic. No wonder the folk flock to a2k for English language help.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:20 pm
You're all wrong.

One Mini Cooper.

Two Minis Cooper.

"There be two Minis Cooper parked in front of my house."

QED
timur
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:23 pm
@joefromchicago,
You are wrong too.

Two Mini Cooper.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:39 pm
@spendius,
You see what I mean fresco. Setanta doesn't expect anybody to read that post. He would consider it impolite to expect us to. He might hope some of us might give it a few seconds. Or that he might impress a newbie with the standards to be met with on A2K.

What " It therefore needs to be pointed out just how stupid that method is", actually means is that Setanta is worried lest any of us take any notice of the figures quoted and become confused, and his caring and compassionate nature urges him to protect us from the nasty, dangerous, turbulent times we are living through in which confusion is rife.

But, have we got a Mini Cooper fanatic on our hands. It could just as easy have been meat-pies on a hot plate, or, two ten-spots under the clock on the mantlepiece. In fact there are so many twos of things and so many places for them to be found that choosing Mini Coopers raishesh shome shlight shushpishunsh.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:41 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
But he never says the French are foolish or ignorant.


That might have been because they aren't. They ignore the silliness of the French Academy just as English speakers have ignored the silliness of the prescriptivists.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:46 pm
@spendius,
I happen to like Mini Coopers, and almost rented one in Venice on my last visit, but alas, the place was closed.


I'm from LA, those are my words, tv will replicate me.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:54 pm
@JTT,
But French prose JT. Even in translation it has a quality which is more sensuous than English. The Academy causes an effect. Not having an Academy has another effect. One is not superior to the other nor sillier. It's a cultural difference stemming from the foggy ruins of time.

I think the extreme non-prescriptivists will have us all babbling eventually. We are well on the way as it is.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 03:58 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Apparently, people are still doing that google search stupidity to attempt to justify usage.


Even linguists use Google for these searches. Imagine that.

Quote:
It therefore needs to be pointed out just how stupid that method is.


When Setanta says a foolish thing, you know that he remains constant.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 04:04 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I think the extreme non-prescriptivists will have us all babbling eventually.


This same drivel has been spouted for centuries, Spendi.

WTF are "extreme non-prescriptivists"? Jesus Murphy!

Quote:
We are well on the way as it is.


Yes, I read your two posts before this one.
spendius
 
  4  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 04:22 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
This same drivel has been spouted for centuries, Spendi.


Which makes one wonder why prescription is still with us. To cut a long story short your use of "drivel" is an affront to the intelligence of untold generations and implies that JTT is superior to them all.

More or less what you just charged Setanta with.

Quote:
WTF are "extreme non-prescriptivists"?


People like you.

Quote:
Yes, I read your two posts before this one.


Tell me why you thought the two posts were (or was) half way to babbling. Don't just assert it. That's babyish.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 04:36 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
If you check out my posts you will find that I am a proponent of "appropriateness" and have pointed out the academic folly of a "correctness" concept.


What failed you in this case?

Quote:
The fact is however, that in "the real world" there is the ever persistent lay idea of "correctness" which informs market forces, and educators who do not drive that home to kids are failing in their duty to prepare them for such a world.


I agree. Kids should be taught to engage those who hold to the abysmally ignorant lay idea of correctness. This could easily be done by actually teaching them how language works instead of the ongoing nonsense that they still receive from way too many educational sources.

The ignorant laypersons would fold like a popup tent.

Quote:
And at the end of the day, kids who have been left to wallow in the social forces of their peer groups and encouraged to assert their "individuality" often end up unemployable, and can even turn to antisocial behavior when they see jobs go to "educated" migrants who know what the score is.


Such has always been the case, Fresco.

But you paint with too wide a brush. What has the social forces of their peer groups got to do with the continued advancement in education of fabrications about how language works? What possible reason can one legitimately make for educating kids to continue on in the ignorance of their parents?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 04:53 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Which makes one wonder why prescription is still with us.


Because, to be blunt, there are confused souls like you, Spendi, who won't take the time to understand.

Quote:
But once introduced, a prescriptive rule is very hard to eradicate, no matter how ridiculous. Inside the educational and writing establishments, the rules survive by the same dynamic that perpetuates ritual genital mutilations and college fraternity hazing:

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html


Quote:
To cut a long story short your use of "drivel" is an affront to the intelligence of untold generations and implies that JTT is superior to them all.


You're being terribly disingenuous, Spendi. It's intelligence to tell people not to split an infinitive because it isn't done in Latin.

You've done nothing to bring yourself up to speed on these issues and still you jump in to advance your own bit of drivel.

Quote:
To whom I say: Maven, shmaven! [Kibbitzers] and [nudniks] is more like it. For here are the remarkable facts. Most of the prescriptive rules of the language mavens make no sense on any level. They are bits of folklore that originated for screwball reasons several hundred years ago and have perpetuated themselves ever since. For as long as they have existed, speakers have flouted them, spawning identical plaints about the imminent decline of the language century after century. All the best writers in English have been among the flagrant flouters. The rules conform neither to logic nor tradition, and if they were ever followed they would force writers into fuzzy, clumsy, wordy, ambiguous, incomprehensible prose, in which certain thoughts are not expressible at all. Indeed, most of the "ignorant errors" these rules are supposed to correct display an elegant logic and an acute sensitivity to the grammatical texture of the language, to which the mavens are oblivious.

The scandal of the language mavens began in the 18th Century. The London dialect had become an important world language, and scholars began to criticize it as they would any institution, in part to question the authority of the aristocracy. Latin was considered the language of enlightenment and learning and it was offered as an ideal of precision and logic to which English should aspire. The period also saw unprecedented social mobility, and anyone who wanted to distinguish himself as cultivated had to master the best version of English. These trends created a demand for handbooks and style manuals, which were soon shaped by market forces: the manuals tried to outdo one another by including greater numbers of increasingly fastidious rules that no refined person could afford to ignore. Most of the hobgoblins of contemporary prescriptive grammar (don't split infinitives, don't end a sentence with a preposition) can be traced back to these 18th Century fads.

Ibid.


Quote:
People like you.


If only you would do some reading, ... and thinking.
dalehileman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 05:01 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
You're all wrong.
One Mini Cooper.
Two Minis Cooper.
Joe you've made my day
Lola
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 05:19 pm
@dalehileman,
Yes, isn't the question what is the plural of Mini Cooper? Were , was, subjunctive, indicative are off topic.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2013 05:59 pm
@fresco,
Here's a classic fresco--

Quote:
This could easily be done by actually teaching them how language works instead of the ongoing nonsense that they still receive from way too many educational sources.


In the US no well brought up person would dream of reading "teaching them how language works" in any other way than as scientific proof that JTT knows how language works and that JTT should be immediately appointed Sec. of State for Education.

Obviously, "way too many educational sources" spouting "nonsense" needs a firm hand.

When nobody listens to what you say it is easy getting into thinking that one has all the answers even to problems that have befuddled the world's best minds.

Until JTT came upon the scene to set us all upon the straight and narrow.
 

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