neologist
 
  1  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 08:33 pm
ContraTodo wrote:
. . . .I'm using what may happen in the future as proof that what the Bible says is true. If it does not happen, then ok, i end my argument.

What i'm saying is that a very clear thing that was stated in the Bible is about to happen by the year 2016 or 2017. Namely the Pope (or some other politcal figure) being mortally wounded and then somehow seemingly healed from death.
My other evidence for this, that is not from the Bible, is what the Pope himself said in 2014 - "2 or 3 more years and then it's off to the fathers house" - that puts the death of the Pope sometime around 2016.
And very interestingly enough it is Revelation 13:3 that speaks of this mortal wound, and 13 + 3 = 16. that's just Math, that happens to be in the Bible.
There is nothing in the scriptures to support numerology, as the numbers were added after the texts were written.

But the event you are speculating about may have already happened. At least there is a good argument for a political organization created in 1920, and which pretty much died before 1940 (though it was not finally buried until 1945). Within a few months, it was reborn, but under a new name.

At least one historical figure used the Revelation prophecy to predict its rebirth That was in 1942.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 12:14 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
. .. .But I did the searching already and found a plethora of reasons to doubt. I started out as an ardent believer. Studying the history of the Bible in university, in a class taught by a faithful Baptist minister no less, is what convinced me that it's much, much, much more likely that the religious claims made therein were made up. Not that that closed my mind about, though. I still keep my eyes peeled for genuine evidence to the contrary, but faith is out.
From my perspective, a 'faithful Baptist minister' is a shaky place to start. But let's try a more modest approach:

If there is a God who created us with our (nearly) universal qualities of love and fairness, may we then assume He must possess those qualities to an even greater degree?

Reading only the first 2 chapters of Genesis from a naive realist point of view, may we then conclude the creative God intended our human parents to continue living until now?

That's as far as I'll go in this post because it is patently obvious the earth we live in today does not meet that expectation; and a great deal of explanation is in order if we are to continue belief in a creator who declared at the end of the 6th day "it is good".
FBM
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 04:20 pm
@neologist,
I don't think the ad hom about him being a faithful Baptist minister is helpful. He was/is a tenured scholar, and this wasn't a Bible college. He ran rings around the blind-faith believer-students, demonstrating to them that much of what they had faith in was BS. The text book was a secular publication of research done on such things as the Q-source and archaeology, not theology. I respect the man and his impressive acumen to this day, despite no longer sharing his faith.

As for the questions you posited, I'm just not willing to speculate on questions based on the veracity of a book that I consider to have very little veracity on the points that matter. The question that I need answered before I consider anything in that or any other scripture to be worth discussing is whether or not there is a god. If there turns out to be some credible evidence in the affirmative, then I'd choose whichever scripture that evidence pointed to, whether it be Jehova or Quetzalcoatl. But without compelling non-scriptural evidence, I'll have to stand firm over here in the unbelievers' corner.
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 05:05 pm
@FBM,
Sorry about the slam. It's just that a huge percentage of the straw men I encounter come from those who profess belief. Let's get back to the modest proposal. I've added numbers:
I wrote:
>1 If there is a God who created us with our (nearly) universal qualities of love and fairness, may we then assume He must possess those qualities to an even greater degree?

>2 Reading only the first 2 chapters of Genesis from a naive realist point of view, may we then conclude the creative God intended our human parents to continue living until now?

>3 That's as far as I'll go in this post because it is patently obvious the earth we live in today does not meet that expectation; and a great deal of explanation is in order if we are to continue belief in a creator who declared at the end of the 6th day "it is good".
I think you will find that the first has absolutely nothing to do with any scripture, while the second applies only to a few verses. Your opinion??
FBM
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 05:18 pm
@neologist,
Hmm. When you capitalize the words "God" and "He," that suggests to me that you're speaking of a particular god from a particular scripture. I don't capitalize "god" and refer to it as an "it" because I'm not talking about any one god in particular, but any of the many that have been posited.

Anyway, whatever the religion, whatever the scripture, the first question for me is still, 'What evidence do you have that such a god exists?' Followed by, 'If you have none, what coherent reasoning would drive a rational person to believe that it does exist?' My opinion is that these questions take precedence over any hypotheticals built on the assumption that a god exists, and I simply don't have any interest in spending time on hypotheticals when there are potentially productive questions about actuality that are as yet unanswered.
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 06:29 pm
@FBM,
Are you of the opinion that your capacity for love and your concept of justice are traits incmpatible with belief in any creator?

Because if you are unable to, even momentarily, consider my hypothesis, then you will never have insight into my point of view.

I would think a person of your education would be familiar with metaphors.
FBM
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 06:44 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Are you of the opinion that your capacity for love and your concept of justice are traits incmpatible with belief in any creator?


Not sure where that question came from. Love, justice, etc, are present in both believers and unbelievers, as far as I can tell.

Quote:
Because if you are unable to, even momentarily, consider my hypothesis, then you will never have insight into my point of view.


Not unable. Unwilling. I don't intend any slight when I show no interest in your point of view; I'm simply not interested in any faith-based piont of view. I've investigated quite a few of them and the common thread they all share is lack of evidence that any of them are true.

Quote:
I would think a person of your education would be familiar with metaphors.


That's like asking a preacher if he knows what the Bible is. Wink
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 07:24 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
That's like asking a preacher if he knows what the Bible is. Wink
My point exactly. Few preachers actually know what the bible is and most of those that do will not tell their congregations. They either continue to preach straw men such as a 6000 year old earth, or use the phony assertion as a reason to ignore the bible's message. "God forbid" they tell the flock that the Genesis account actually allows for billions of years.
FBM
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 07:25 pm
@neologist,
That was a joke. A metaphor joke. Not a very good one, apparently. Embarrassed
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 07:48 pm
@FBM,
My opinion of paid clergy is no joke.

They do more to advance the cause of atheism than a zillion Dawkins.
FBM
 
  2  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 08:21 pm
@neologist,
Well, just to be clear, that preacher-professor wasn't trying to dissuade anyone from believing. He just wanted to clear the cultural accretions out of the faith. Much like you do, if I understand you right.

Anyway, the Bible alone is sufficient to knock a person off that path: http://io9.com/gods-12-biggest-dick-moves-in-the-old-testament-1522970429
neologist
 
  1  
Tue 7 Apr, 2015 09:58 am
@FBM,
You will have to post them yourself. I don't go to off site links.
Most are full of psychotic rants mixed with irrational straw men.
Not that yours is like that. I'm just tired of kissing toads trying to find a prince.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Tue 7 Apr, 2015 07:15 pm
It's pretty tongue-in-cheek stuff, but still...:

Quote:
​God's 12 Biggest Dick Moves in the Old Testament

1

Before Jesus arrived and his divine father chilled out, the Old Testament God was, ironically, kind of a hellraiser. He was not a nice guy. He really liked killing people. And he may have actually been insane, if his willingness to randomly murder devout worshippers like Moses was any indication. Here are the 12 craziest, most awful things God did in the Old Testament, back before that wacked-out hippie Jesus softened him up.

1) Sending Bears to Murder Children

So a guy named Eliseus was traveling to Bethel when a bunch of kids popped up and made fun of him for being bald. That had to suck, and you can't blame Eliseus for being pissed and cursing them to God. But God had Eliseus' back, by which I mean he sent two bears to maul 42 of these kids to death. For making fun of a bald dude. I have to think Eliseus was looking for something along the lines of a spanking, or maybe the poetic justice of having the kids go bald, but nope, God went straight for the bear murder. But on the plus side, that pile of 40+ children's corpses never made fun of anybody again. (4 Kings 2:23-24)

2) Turning Lot's Wife to Salt

Most folks know about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, two cities of sin God decided to kill everyone in instead of, you know, making them not full of sin. But this was a town that, when two angels were staying at Lot's place, gathered en masse and asked if they could rape them. I repeat: They wanted to rape angels. So they kind of had their destruction coming. Lot and his family were sent from the city before things went down, and Lot's wife looked back, and God turned her into a pillar of salt. It's generally understood that Lot's wife was looking back in a wistful kind of way at her angel-raping hometown, but the fact is there's nothing in the Bible to suggest this. Nor was Lot's family warned about looking back. Maybe Lot's wife wanted to see Sodom and Gomorrah get what was coming to it. Maybe she was thinking wistfully of the things she had to leave behind. Maybe she wondered if she left the oven on. We'll never know, because God turned her into seasoning for breaking a rule she didn't know existed. (Genesis 19:26)

3) Hating Ugly People

In what should be good news for intolerant religious conservatives, God really does hate people who are different from the norm. Of course, God isn't as worried about skin color or sexual orientation as he is about whether you're ugly or not. Because if you're ugly, you can just go worship some other god, okay? (Even though God will punish you if you do and also they don't exist.) Here's the people God does not want coming into his churches: People with blemishes, blind people, the lame, those with flat noses, dwarves, people with scurvy, people with bad eyes, people with bad skin, and those that "hath their stones broken." Given that God is technically responsible for giving people all of these afflictions in the first place, this is an enormous dick move. (Leviticus 21:17-24)

​God's 12 Biggest Dick Moves in the Old Testament
234

4) Trying to Kill Moses

In terms of people who God likes, you'd think Moses would be pretty high up on the list, right? I mean, God appointed him to lead the Jews out of Egypt, parted the Red Sea for him, and even picked him to receive the 10 Commandments, right? Yet this didn't stop God from trying to kill Moses when he ran into him at "a lodging place." There is literally no explanation given in the Bible for God's decision to murder one of his chief supporters. The line is "At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him." The only sensible explanation for this is that God was drunk out of his mind and looking for a bar fight, and you better hope that's correct because the alternative is that God's a psychopath. How was God stopped from murdering his #1 fan? "But [Moses' wife] Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it ... So the Lord let him alone." Either the sight of a very unexpected circumcision sobered God up quickly, or he didn't want to touch a dude who just touched a severed foreskin. Still, it's Moses' son who's the real victim here. (Exodus 4:24-26)

5) Committing So Much Genocide

God has killed so many people, you guys. Okay, I mean technically, God has killed everyone if you subscribe to Judeo-Christian thought, but I'm not talking about indirect methods, I'm talking about God murdering countless people in horrible ways simply because he's pissed off. God drowning every single person on the planet besides Noah and his family is pretty well known, but he also helped the Israelites murder everyone in Jericho, Heshbon, Bashan and many more, usually killing women, children and animals at the same time. Hell, God once helped some Israelites kill 500,000 other Israelites. God's crazy.

​God's 12 Biggest Dick Moves in the Old Testament

6) Ordering His Underlings to Kill Their Own Children

God is obviously good at big picture dickishness, but he also took the time to be a dick on a more personal level. Abraham was another devout man who God decided to **** with, apparently because he knew he could. God ordered him to sacrifice his son to God (God was a fan of human sacrifice at the time). We know Abraham loved his son, so he was probably kind of upset with this, but hey, God's God, right? So Abraham tricked his unsuspecting son up a mountain onto a sacrificial altar and prepared to murder him. This story actually has a happy ending, in that right before Abraham drove a knife into his son's throat, God yelled "Psyche!" and told him it was only a test. And then Abraham received some blessings after that for being willing to kill his own child at God's whim. And all it took was the dread of being forced to kill his own child on behalf of his angry deity and, presumably, a ****-ton of awkward family dinners for the rest of his life. Abraham got off better than Jephthah, who had to follow through with murdering his daughter (burning her alive, specifically) in order to get on God's good side before battling the Ammonites. (Genesis 22:1-12)

7) Killing Egyptian Babies

Let's be completely up front: The Egyptians and the Jews did not get along. According to the Bible, the Egyptians enslaved the Jews, but the Jews had God on their side, if you kind of ignore God letting his people be enslaved in the first place. Rather getting his worshippers the hell out of there, God wanted to show those damned Egyptians what for, releasing 10 plagues that began with turning the river Nile into pure blood, and ending with the slaughter of the first-born of every single Egyptian man and animal. Now, I suppose it's possible that some, or even most of these first-born were adults who were shitty to the Israelites. But some of them had to be babies who didn't even have the time to persecute the Jews yet. And what the hell did the animals do to the Jews to get caught up in this nightmare? Were there proto-Nazi cows running around who needed to be punished for their transgressions against the chosen people? And you realize there were cats in Egypt, right? Cats who had first-born? God killed kittens. (Numbers 16:41-49)

8) Killing a Dude for Not Making More Babies

So you're a dude named Onan and you have a brother named Er. God does not care for Er, and kills him. Standard God operating procedure. Then things gets weird. Onan's dad orders Onan to have sex with Er's wife — not marry, by the way, just have sex with. This is actually pretty awkward for Onan, sleeping with his sister-in-law, and rather than give her any more kids (she had two with Er already) he pulls out. God is so infuriated that Onan did not **** his sister-in-law to completion that he kills him, too. Now, you could argue that God demands that intercourse be used specifically for procreation, but given how much God loves killing babies and children, I don't think his motives here are exceptionally pure. (Genesis 38:1-10)

9) Helping Samson Murder People to Pay Off a Bet

More evidence that God is possibly a low-level mobster: When his pal Samson got married, he was given 30 friends, and he posed them (a completely insane) riddle. Then he made a bet that if they could solve it in a week, Samson would give them all new clothes, but if they couldn't they would give Samson 30 pairs of new clothes. Well, Samson's wife wheedled the answer out of him and then told these dudes, at which point an angry Samson had to pay up. And here's where God comes in — literally, into Samson, giving him the power to murder 30 random people for their clothes. Only a true friend would help you commit mass murder to settle a completely stupid bet. (Judges 14:1-19)

​God's 12 Biggest Dick Moves in the Old Testament

10) Trying to Wrestle a Guy, Cheating, and Still Losing

And here's more evidence that God is a drunk maniac: Jacob was traveling with his two wives, his 11 kids, and all his earthly possessions and had sent them across a river. At that moment, a guy essentially leapt out of the bushes and started wrestling. It's God! They wrestle all night, and God cannot beat Jacob, so he uses his magic God powers to wrench Jacob's hip out of its socket. But Jacob still won't let him out of a headlock until God blesses him, because Jacob has figured out who this bizarre man is. God blesses him and wanders off, presumably to go get in a bar fight somewhere. (Genesis 32: 22-31)

11) Killing People for Complaining About God Killing Them

To be fair, after God freed the Israelites from Egyptian slavery, they were extraordinarily bitchy about not instantly being in a land of milk and honey. It got so bad that God was ready to kill all of them and let Moses start the Jews over, although Moses managed to talk him out of it. But one of their more sensible complaints was that Moses was lording himself over the rest of them, which was probably true, seeing as God had given him the 10 Commandments and all that. So Moses summoned the three tribal elders who had made the complaint to a Monday morning staff meeting, but two of them didn't come. Neither Moses nor God cared for that, and God opened up the grounds beneath their people's tents, killing both tribes (God also set fire to 250 Israelite princes who'd made the same complaint). Having been well admonished that Moses was putting himself above the rest of the people with God's permission, a number of surviving Israelites were kind of pissed that Moses and God had killed so many of their fellow people to prove a point. God responded by killing another 14,700 of them with a plague. The complaints stopped. (Numbers 16:1-49)

12) Everything He Did to Job

Oh, Job. Other than a ****-ton of babies, no one had it worse in the Bible than Job, who was a righteous, good-hearted man who believed in God with every fiber in his being — which is when God decides to see how miserable he can make this dude before he gets upset. Note: This is a result of a bet between God and Satan. Also note: The bet is God's idea. He's literally just hanging out with Satan — which is kinda weird when you think about it — when he starting bragging about how awesome Job is. Satan points out that Job's pretty blessed — he's rich, he's got a lot of kids, etc., and he probably wouldn't be quite so thrilled with God if he didn't have that stuff. God downs his bourbon, presumably, and tells Satan he can **** with Job all he wants. Satan does. He kills all of Job's children and animals, burns down his house, destroys his wealth, and then covers him in boils. Job doesn't not curse God, but he does wish he'd never been born (literally) and begs God to kill him, but no dice. This lasts a long time until finally Job wonders why a just God would be so shitty. This is when God pops up and basically tells him."Shut up, I don't have to explain anything to you." Job, having finally done something wrong, pleads for mercy, and God eventually gives him back animals and children — new ones, because the old ones are still dead. Because of a bet. That God made with Satan. For kicks. (Job 1)

Don't forgot Exodus 4-21 and 9-12 where God supposedly makes Pharaoh not listen to Moses and NOT let the Jews go on the first place, thus creating the need for further plagues on Egypt. WTF?! If his goal is to "free your people from bondage" why would you even draw it out, if not simply to cause more suffering on Egyptians and Jews alike.

Some apologetics have attempted to explain or justify this but it's it sounds like a lot of back peddling. http://www.catholic.com/blog/trent-hor...

My road to atheism began the day my Sunday school teacher announced, "Gos is not a nice person," and I released holy ****, she was right.
neologist
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2015 12:39 pm
@FBM,
So much straw and only one match.
Well, OK. I'll pick one:
What makes you think the situation with Job was a singular event?
Note Jesus' words at Luke 22:31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat." This is in accord with Satan's allegation at Job 2:4 "Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life." Note that his words apply to all men, any man.

It's just that in our case, we are not subject to the same extremes as Job.

But in Job's case, we should remember:
He was rewarded with additional life, children and belongings.
He, and all of his children, will be granted additional life according to Jesus' promise at John 5:28,29, and foretold by Job in Ch 14, vs 14,15
Quote:
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2015 01:41 pm
@neologist,
God permits Satan to do to man what he's done. The responsibility is entirely God's.
neologist
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2015 04:57 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
God permits Satan to do to man what he's done. The responsibility is entirely God's.
Some of us understand Satan's permission to have a limit.
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Thu 9 Apr, 2015 05:55 pm
one could say, to blame mankind's ails on the devil, is to underestimate man.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2015 06:44 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

So much straw and only one match.
Well, OK. I'll pick one:
What makes you think the situation with Job was a singular event?
Note Jesus' words at Luke 22:31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat." This is in accord with Satan's allegation at Job 2:4 "Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life." Note that his words apply to all men, any man.

It's just that in our case, we are not subject to the same extremes as Job.

But in Job's case, we should remember:
He was rewarded with additional life, children and belongings.
He, and all of his children, will be granted additional life according to Jesus' promise at John 5:28,29, and foretold by Job in Ch 14, vs 14,15
Quote:
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.



Begging the question there. Quoting the Bible only works for those who already believe that the stories in the Bible are true. And a bit of cherry picking. How about sending the bears to kill the children? What was their payback? And again, what about all the children born with severe birth defects? The tornados wiping out churches full of the faithful? How can you believe in a just and merciful god after seeing Justin Bieber?
neologist
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2015 10:00 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
Begging the question there. Quoting the Bible only works for those who already believe that the stories in the Bible are true.
Ahem!
May I point out the straw man was derived from an obfuscation of the Bible?
What did you expect?
Refutation from the Bhagvad Gita?
Explanation from Newtonian Physics?
I'll come back for the rest when I get a chance.
FBM
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2015 10:15 pm
@neologist,
OK, fair enough. How about starting with #1, the bears he sent to kill children?
 

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