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Lib Dem British MP Castigates Israel

 
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 12:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
However, the lattered continuously attacked the settlers, who are forced to retaliate and defend themselves.


When any one group steals land from others as "settlers," don't expect that the people who lost their land to remain silent.

You have no concept of ethics or legal issues of property.


He's also peddling lies, Palestinians are constantly attacked by settlers, not the other way round.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 12:46 pm
@izzythepush,
The numbers tell the story, but people like Advocate doesn't understand math when it applies to people killed, or doesn't understand ethical and legal issues that pertains to most democracies.

These "facts" which Advocate et al calls "false" cannot provide any refuting evidence. http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000639 They prefer to use ad hominems in place of facts.

What's so telling about this report is from the "4. Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs" that only shows Jewish fatalities.

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2013 11:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

A dodge, and not a very skillful one, necessitated by your need to stay on your political course.


What did I dodge, exactly?

Quote:
You've introduced hypocrisy into the discussion, not me.


Yes I did. I was differentiating the lessons to learn that you brought up.

Apparently,

Quote:
I offered no value judgements, merely the observation that if one thinks that Jews, by virtue of their suffering, should embrace non-violence, it would be consistent, at least, to expect the same of Palestinians.


you fail to see the difference in the lessons to be learned.


Quote:
You can't help yourself from defending the Palestinian slaughter of innocents.


I am merely describing the Palestinian militants' modus operandi in terms that hawks tend to use (recognize the terminology?) to rationalize their defense of slaughter and violence. I certainly am not defending it.

By saying the "Palestinian slaughter of innocents" you're smearing all of the Palestinians for what the militants among them have done to the innocents, yet you criticize c.i. for doing the same against "the Jews."

See my post above about hypocrisy.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 04:38 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

A dodge, and not a very skillful one, necessitated by your need to stay on your political course.


What did I dodge, exactly?


Don't expect a reply any time soon. On another thread Finn accused me of wilfully ignoring something, but he's still not said what, despite being asked.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 01:18 pm
@InfraBlue,
Your objection to "Palestinian slaughter of innocents" is literal, to say the least. Even a child would know that not every Pal slaughters people.

Of course, young Pals are taught in madrasses that Jews are pigs and other foul creatures, and should be killed on sight.
contrex
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 01:58 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
Of course, young Pals are taught in madrasses that Jews are pigs and other foul creatures, and should be killed on sight.


You're a despicable loony. This thread has reached the stage of pointlessness.
izzythepush
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 03:26 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Of course, young Pals are taught in madrasses that Jews are pigs and other foul creatures, and should be killed on sight.


You're a despicable loony. This thread has reached the stage of pointlessness.



Not only that, note how he casually uses perjorative terminology, but throws a wobbly when CI calls Israelis Jews.

By their words shall you know them.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 03:34 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Advocate wrote:

Of course, young Pals are taught in madrasses that Jews are pigs and other foul creatures, and should be killed on sight.


Bigotry is blind; Advocate doesn't know much about Muslims/Arabs. The majority of Muslims are law abiding, family oriented world citizens like most civilized societies. They represent approximately 1.6 billion of the world, and they are not terrorists or anti-Semites as Advocate would have us believe.

I have traveled to Israel twice, and have traveled throughout Central Asia where the majority (80-90%) are Muslims. Most of the children we came into contact with in Central Asia were well educated (most speak multiple languages including English) and are polite to their elders. While on public transportion, the children stood up for us to sit.

Advocate's kind of bigotry is myopic, ignorant, and idiotic. Too bad we have so many in the US.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 03:56 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That was very well said, ci.

By the way...none of us ought to minimize the pressures on Jews to be defensive. But being understanding of why there is defensiveness ought never to blind us to the CENTRAL issue at hand in the problems now disrupting the Middle East.

One of the reasons Advocate refuses to answer my question is because the answer is too disturbing.

Jews, as he pointed out, have indeed lived in that area for centuries...for thousands of years.

But Arabs and non-Jews have lived in that area for centuries also...for thousands of years.

And compared with Europeans, for instance, they have lived together relatively peacefully for all those years...up until the middle of the 1940's.

The introduction of the state of Israel into the Middle East is the factor that made the difference...the introduction of the state of Israel and the hostility to the introduction of the state of Israel.

My guess: So long as the state of Israel exists in that area...and so long as there is one Arab alive there...there will never be a meaningful, lasting peace.

One or the other has to go for any reasonable chance at lasting, meaningful peace.
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 04:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You make a good case for partition.

The parties should redivide the area, with separate and distinct Jewish and Arab areas. Then, the part of Israel housing Israeli Arabs should be ceded to the Arab area.

A good fence (good fences make for good neighbors) should be constructed to separate the two areas.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 04:22 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank wrote:


By the way...none of us ought to minimize the pressures on Jews to be defensive.


What are these pressures on "Jews" to be defensive, and how does this relate to the Israel/Palestine conflict?
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 04:58 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

...Here he is entirely accurate. Moreover he does not refer to all Jews everywhere, as the critic alleged, but rather only to the unfortunate Jewish Zionists who fled a devestated Europe, where they were among the chief victims of hatred and an awful attempt at extermination, to found a new sanctuary state for themselves, but on the backs of another, and equally innocent, people.




Uh, the Arabs rioted against the Jews back in the earlier part of the 20th century, when Arabs (aka, Palestineans) realized the dream of a Zionist State, based on land bought from the Ottoman Empire, was not dying.

Also, having pointed out the problem, in your opinion ("but on the backs of another, and equally innocent, people"), do you have a solution, in context of not one country of origin wanted these survivors back?

Your analysis, in my opinion, is flippant, based on your not giving a solution for a most despised, pariah people in the Christian Europe that so many people descend from.

Did anyone offer the survivors to have their own territory in Germany? Poland? Voila! Dump them in Israel, since I would believe only the religious Jews were asked, "Where would you like to go?"

In other words, in my opinion, Israel was a booby-prize from the outset, since no one expected them to live in peace.

InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 05:08 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
In other words, in my opinion, Israel was a booby-prize from the outset, since no one expected them to live in peace.


The early 20th century Zionists certainly didn't hold that opinion. Theirs was more a case of myopic idealism.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 05:12 pm
I could be wrong, but the joy in trashing the Jewish State as some sort of Devil Incarnate, in my opinion, tells me that there is an intractable distaste for that which is Jewish in the psyche of many people of (Christian) Europe descent. Almost like an extension of the desire to ghettoize the Jews, and ban him from Guilds, and Universities in Christian Europe. Sort of like the motivation to keep African Americans poor in much of the US.

Sorry, but when I see a bunch of Gentiles "ganging up" (correct word, if one knows urban history) on something that connotes Judaism, I have to think something archetypal (aka, Jung's collective unconscious) is going on.

Don't worry guys, Jews are not taking over. They really want no part of your society, if they have a strong Jewish identity, in my opinion. Please go and watch It's a Wonderful Life; it might lessen the venomous feelings.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 05:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
My guess: So long as the state of Israel exists in that area...and so long as there is one Arab alive there...there will never be a meaningful, lasting peace.

One or the other has to go for any reasonable chance at lasting, meaningful peace.


I don't share your pessimism, you could easily have said the same thing about Ulster twenty years ago.

The only way that there will be peace is when Israel realises it's in its own interests, and that's not going to happen while they're still gobbling up land in the occupied territories, creating facts on the ground in order to make a Palestinian state untenable.

The only country that can put pressure on Israel is America, and that's not going to happen as long as your politicians run scared of the Israel lobby.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 05:19 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Sorry, but when I see a bunch of Gentiles "ganging up" (correct word, if one knows urban history) on something that connotes Judaism, I have to think something archetypal (aka, Jung's collective unconscious) is going on.


If a similar argument had been made about the Boers Nelson Mandela would have died in prison a long time ago. It's bullshit designed to deflect attention from what is going on in the occupied territories. It's also racist to suggest that Israel should not be expected to live up to the same standards as any other democracy.

Fluff wrote:
Don't worry guys, Jews are not taking over.


They are in the West Bank.

cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 05:33 pm
@izzythepush,
Amen to that! Even Obama supports the non-democratic country of Israel.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2013 06:24 am
@Advocate,
Code:Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5256119)
You make a good case for partition.


No I don't...and my opinion is that "partition" would not change things appreciably. But I would love to hear why you think so.

I guess the best way to start would be by asking why you suppose that my comment:

My guess: So long as the state of Israel exists in that area...and so long as there is one Arab alive there...there will never be a meaningful, lasting peace. One or the other has to go for any reasonable chance at lasting, meaningful peace....

...can be interpreted as a call for "partition?"

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2013 06:26 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5256119)
Frank wrote:


By the way...none of us ought to minimize the pressures on Jews to be defensive.


What are these pressures on "Jews" to be defensive, and how does this relate to the Israel/Palestine conflict?


As respectfully as I can say this: Anyone who has to ask that question probably could never understand the answer.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Feb, 2013 06:32 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5256119)
Frank Apisa wrote:
My guess: So long as the state of Israel exists in that area...and so long as there is one Arab alive there...there will never be a meaningful, lasting peace.

One or the other has to go for any reasonable chance at lasting, meaningful peace.



I don't share your pessimism, you could easily have said the same thing about Ulster twenty years ago.

The only way that there will be peace is when Israel realises it's in its own interests, and that's not going to happen while they're still gobbling up land in the occupied territories, creating facts on the ground in order to make a Palestinian state untenable.

The only country that can put pressure on Israel is America, and that's not going to happen as long as your politicians run scared of the Israel lobby.


I understand that you feel that, Izzy...and that many others think peace can happen there even with both a state of Israel and any Arabs still living there.

You may be right.

But if I had to bet...I would bet there will not be anything remotely resembling peace in that area during my lifetime, your lifetime, during the lifetimes of anyone else currently alive...or during the lifetimes of children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, or great-great-grandchildren of anyone alive right now.

 

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