Pope Benedict to resign

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

Idiot.

Says the judge of good retorts.

Gold.

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@hingehead,

hingehead wrote:

There's no way it will be Pell. Rest easy.

Well, that's what I thought, but I have a friend who is delving deeply into the current semi schism, and maintains he could be a compromise candidate

I also find it very hard to swallow.

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Latin America and Africa are calling for one of their own to be elected. In the case of Latin America, they are, or claim to be, the birth place of liberation theology. Additionally, the fundamentalist and charismatic sects from the United States have been making inroads into their congregations. I think it is fair to say that the Latin American church feels that they need to bolster their support. Africa is a bastion of the church, and it is moderate to conservative. It is unlikely that an African candidate would take the church very far away from their conservative tendencies. That is, however, something which would make the College leery of a Latin American candidate, as being someone who might introduce innovation--something with which the church is not comfortable.

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@Setanta,

Hi set, is the motivation for 'one of our own' mostly parochial or mostly about the direction they want the church to move?

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@hingehead,

It could be a little bit of both. When i was a kid, people used to say that the Italians ruled the church, the Americans paid for it and the Germans did all the work. Most practicing Catholics in the world are no longer in Europe, and there has long been resentment against the European leadership. The Latin American church may want to move in a more liberal direction, and i suspect the African church is happy with a conservative agenda and would like to see it stay that way.

Outside Europe, the Americas and Africa, the only large Catholic communities are scattered across Asia in small enclaves, such as Goa in India or Macao in China, both of which are former Portuguese colonies. The one major exception to that is the Philippines, which is, at least ostensibly, more than 80% Catholic. I have no idea if they want a liberal or a conservative church.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

Why the Hell is it so hard to believe the guy is really old and fading fast and, at least in this one thing if none others, wants to do what is right for an organization to which he has devoted his entire life?

WHY, indeed!

We are five by five on this one, Finn.

Some of the speculation is just short of "the grassy knoll" and "area 51" kind of thing.

The guy is old...and is willing to acknowledge it.

C'mon, folks.

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@Frank Apisa,

Have you actually read this thread frank? Give me a grassy knoll area 51 quote from the posters. Some have postulated he is being scapegoated for proven abuses of the church but I haven't seen any unproven references to aliens or single bullet theories. Hyperbole is not usually your style.

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@hingehead,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5253670)
Have you actually read this thread frank? Give me a grassy knoll area 51 quote from the posters. Some have postulated he is being scapegoated for proven abuses of the church but I haven't seen any unproven references to aliens or single bullet theories. Hyperbole is not usually your style.

Easy, Hingehead.

Have you actually read my comment?

Do you understand the meaning of "some of the speculation is just short of?"

The "grassy knoll" theory could be true. Every speculation about Area 51 could be true. And the speculation about why the pope is resigning could be true.

Frankly, I think the guy is tired and thinks he cannot continue on an arduous ministry. And the speculation that sounds closest to reality to me is: Rather than allow "tradition" or "pride" to rule...he is stepping down.

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@hingehead,

My hope is that it isn't the Canadian, Ouellet. But him I've read about and don't know about all the others being mentioned. Agree with Set's thoughts on latin american and african candidates, generally anyway, since I don't know the individuals. As I said somewhere earlier, the college of cardinals has been mightily seeded for years now with the most conservative fellows (or so I read), by the last two popes; this will affect the votes, I think. I haven't relooked up the data I read a couple of years ago, but I seem to remember they at least doubled the number of cardinals doing this, maybe more.

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@ossobuco,

On Benedict, I've no idea why he is resigning, even if I think he did poorly by the church. I can see that it might well be for the reasons he said, given his background as a managerial pope.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank, I've admired your old argument about agnosticism, but I'll take it back a gear, quote me something 'just short of' Area 51 on this thread. I think there are many degrees of separation. Between 'could be true' and 'moderately probable'

My argument is not against he thinks he's to old, my query is why for the first time in the best part of a thousand years a pope has acknowledged that weakness. And you side with finnk rather than ponder why, and why now.

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@hingehead,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5253720)
Frank, I've admired your old argument about agnosticism...

Thank you.

Quote:

...but I'll take it back a gear, quote me something 'just short of' Area 51 on this thread. I think there are many degrees of separation. Between 'could be true' and 'moderately probable'

To me...the guy looks like a tired old man who might have trouble tending a decent sized tomato patch...let alone a corporation with over a billion employees, which essentially is what the job of pope is.

He said he was retiring because he no longer considered himself capable of handling the job...something he said from the moment he was first elected.

I see no good reason to suppose all the other stuff...when this plainly is there.

Quote:

My argument is not against he thinks he's to old, my query is why for the first time in the best part of a thousand years a pope has acknowledged that weakness.

Maybe he is more honest then the other popes have been...or maybe he is less concerned with what people might think. I don't know. He says he is too old for the job...I personally think he is way, way too old for the job. I go with that explanation rather than all the other speculation...which I see as typical conspiracy kinds of stuff.

I understand you don't. Please try to understand that I do.

Quote:

And you side with finnk rather than ponder why, and why now.

I think what I think because that is what I think. If it agrees with something said by someone else....I often remark that I am in agreement.

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News today

Quote:

On Thursday, the Vatican spokesman acknowledged that Benedict hit his head and bled profusely while visiting Mexico in March. Two days earlier the same man acknowledged that Benedict has had a pacemaker for years, and underwent a secret operation to replace its battery three months ago.

And as the Catholic world reeled from shock over the abdication, it soon became clear that Benedict's post-papacy lodgings have been under construction since at least the fall. That in turn put holes in the Holy See's early claims that Benedict kept his decision to himself until he revealed it.

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@Frank Apisa,

Apparently your (undoubtedly unsought) membership in Hinge's club has been jeopardized by agreeing with me.

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@Frank Apisa,

Thanks frank, I agree he looks like a tired old man, but a lot of popes have, what intrigues me is why this one felt he could break with a centuries old tradition, I'm pretty sure it's more than 'I'm too old for this' just as I'm sure that's definitely a part of it. What's giving me the irrits is that for daring to ask the question I'm an anti catholic cynic destroying the world by being a westerner and being told to calm down, I wasn't aware I was asking rabidly panic-stricken questions. Too call speculation that very real problems of, and pressures on, the vatican have played a role in his decision 'conspiracy theories' seems like hyperbole to me.

I apologise to you and the Texan tosspot for asking questions and then defending why I asked them.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Don't worry Finn you are definitely in my club.

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@hingehead,

Careful, hinge. You're beginning to sound as though you're taking Finny's frothing at the mouth seriously. If you're not careful, any minute now you'll start believing that he actually makes some sense and is worth arguing with.

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@hingehead,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5253827)
Thanks frank, I agree he looks like a tired old man, but a lot of popes have, what intrigues me is why this one felt he could break with a centuries old tradition, I'm pretty sure it's more than 'I'm too old for this' just as I'm sure that's definitely a part of it. What's giving me the irrits is that for daring to ask the question I'm an anti catholic cynic destroying the world by being a westerner and being told to calm down, I wasn't aware I was asking rabidly panic-stricken questions. Too call speculation that very real problems of, and pressures on, the vatican have played a role in his decision 'conspiracy theories' seems like hyperbole to me.

Well...if it is, I apologize to you and the others. But to be honest, the guys says he is tired and old--and that he would do his church more good by stepping down than by sticking it out.

To me...he looks ancient...and tired as a dog on a hot August day. And my personal feelings are that he would do his church a world more good by stepping down than by sticking it out.

When people seem to reject that...and instead go for those other speculations...I do, rightly or wrongly, think it "conspiracy thinking."

Quote:

I apologise to you and the Texan tosspot for asking questions and then defending why I asked them.

C'mon. We both are strong advocates for our respective positions...and both are going to defend them.

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@Frank Apisa,

I don't have a position and yours is to repeat he's just a tired old man. In a long line of tired old men, but the first to resign voluntarily in over 700 years and I'm just curious why this one felt he could do something that at least several others thought they couldn't do. It's not a biggie, but I don't think you rise to the papacy and the only thing you weigh up is - geez, this is hard.

You know Einstein said about simple answers...

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@Frank Apisa,

Being a ex director in a tiny company.... I would say that that the best type to run the Catholic church company.. with one million employees. Would be someone that looks hole -y, likes wearing dresses, wearing expensive rings, and funny hats and is to old to have sexual thoughts and likes being worshiped like a God. Would also help to be able speak in Italian and read Latin

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Pope Benedict to resign

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