Pope Benedict to resign

Is that guy still here?

Anti Buddhists are always finding fault wherever they can.

Anti Buddhists are always finding fault wherever they can.

Castel Gondolfo is the summer residence of the pope. It is owned by the Vatican...but I think it is considered part of Italy, not the Holy See.

I had a general audience with Pius XII there in 1956 (may have been 1957).

Yes, but I don't know if property owned by the vatican is "vatican" - if so, there are a zillion buildings in Rome that are vatican. I am guessing not, especially since now he is taking a fairly modern apartment on the vatican grounds.

Hmmmm -

http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/Monuments/Castel_Gandolfo.htm

Maybe or maybe not... other buildings owned by the church in Rome may be differentiated from The Papal Villas.

Just did some research...and discovered that Castel Gondalfo does not refer to the fortress castle itself...but is the name of the town. It is an Italian town...and was at some point voted the most beautiful town in Italy.

The actual summer residence is a castle/fortress.

But....

http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/Monuments/Castel_Gandolfo.htm

cough..

You really should read Ossobuco's posts, Frank.

King Facile does like to come down from bullshit mountain occasionally.

I suppose they are, have any in particular in mind?

<note: I actually wrote this way back on page one, firefox crashed but saved the tab - but because I run about 5 tab groups each with 20-80 tabs in them I've only just found it and am clicking send>

His 'I'm too old for this' sounds plausible except for the fact that it's been several centuries since anyone used it. I certainly hope I'm not running an organisation like that in my 80s. One wonders why it hasn't happened for so long, so I completely understand you raising the 'why'?

in all honesty i think it's simply his position has become untenable. he has, at the very least APPEARED complicit in the abuse scandal, his nazi youth keeps getting brought up, rightly or wrongly, and it was damaging the church. i don't think any major controversy is about to explode, it was simply time for a spring clean, before congregation numbers completely vaporise.

I don't buy the nazi youth thing - it was compulsory for all boys his age and there's nothing that suggests he was enthusiastic and his actions after suggest he was never sympathetic, though I understand you were making the 'wrongly or rightly' point. Besides I don't think being a 14 yo old in the Hitler Youth is anything compared to millennial sexual child abuse and pushing Benedict out of the picture isn't going to make a lick of difference to that stain. Nor is scapegoating him for any of the other institution's perceived failings (from sexual health to the place of women) they will remain post-Benedict.

What little I've read makes me think it's not the more progressive parts of the church pressuring Benedict because of his relatively conservative stances - in fact it seems the front runners as replacements are from the same camp and a couple have even studied under Benedict.

I wonder if being appointed pope is considered a good thing by the bishops (at a personal leverl), or a duty to be born.

A couple of comedians have drawn parallels between the Vatican and the GOP (conservative old white guys concerned with preserving influence) , worth a giggle I guess, but on a more philosophical level it has made me think how much an institution can change without risking it's position as an institution - Resistance to change is sort of the point of strong institutions, they don't bend with societal winds all that much, so when they change direction they are still there providing stability and consistency, for better or worse.

Why the Hell is it so hard to believe the guy is really old and fading fast and, at least in this one thing if none others, wants to do what is right for an organization to which he has devoted his entire life?

Because lots of old guys have done the same job but it's been over half a millenium since one has resigned - some much more debilitated - JP2 was racked by dementia for FFS - if you can't see this as an edge case you truly are facile.

Postscript
We are talking about an organisation where tradition is everything.

apparently his personal secretary will remain his personal secretary, and will also be advisor to the new pope, so it does appear he will keep some influence.

totally agree with you about the whole nazi youth thing,
and the child abuse thing, i know it won't change anything, but the finger was increasingly pointing at him for at least doing nothing, and knowing it was being covered up. for that, as head of the catholic church, he had to go.

Was just reading a piece in the Guardian Weekly (lunch here).

They're saying that the 'don't resign voluntarily' thing (which last happened in 1291) evolved because there was always a fear that a schism could develop in the church if allegiances were torn between two popes (I guess the Avignon episode cemented that in their minds). Anyway my take was that resigning is the most reformist thing Benedict has done - it may open the way for future popes to do the same, thus avoiding some of the travesties of the past.

Had a deliciously sad quote from John XXIII when asked what depressed him the most about being pontiff "It is going to sleep every night in the bed you know you will die in."