Why has it almost Become Impossible to Converse with and Enjoy Those Who Differ?

Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, Neal Boortz, Bill O'Reilly, Fox News, ...

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@hawkeye10,

Post Christian Era? I don't agree with that. Not here in SC. I do agree with your original question though. The point many miss is how good we really do have it. I think it is largely human nature to fight, no matter how comfortable we are. Look how popular sports are. Outside of golf maybe, it is mostly fighting. We need a competitor. Here it's way too easy, we are safely removed from any consequences. Religion does provide some answers, but even there we just collect in groups and fight. It's the human condition. It's been going on since the beginning of time. The only thing that's changed is the weapons. I was a child of the 60s and I remember it as very confrontational. You were fortunate to have the family you had.

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@hawkeye10,

I sometimes don't agree with you, but I do read your posts and sometimes I do change my view. I do respect your posts. A lot of time folks here will take a position just to define the fight, or start one.

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@hawkeye10,

From that point I think the media has a lot to do with it. Whatever your world view it is easy to find a resource that will push it further out of bounds. In the past I don't think most folks thought about politics as much as they do now. There are too many cheerleaders, on both sides. BTW thanks for starting this thread. I've been having the same thoughts.

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@Setanta,

Why do you have to always make this so personal? You are making Hawkeye's point for him. And don't just say its not you, it's me.

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@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

I sometimes don't agree with you, but I do read your posts and sometimes I do change my view. I do respect your posts. A lot of time folks here will take a position just to define the fight, or start one.

In a way wondering about what I perceive to be warped priorities is exactly my point. I am a socialist, and I became one in part because I enjoy people, and enjoy diversity. My eyes were opened when I lived in germany and in many different places in the USA, open by way of hanging out with people who were not like I was used to. So why do so many seemingly desire to obliterate all who do not agree with them?? I find this to be hopelessly mind boggleing. It seems to be a pursuit of a lower quality of life.

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@hawkeye10,

I go back to two points. We are pack animals and we love to fight. It's in our nature.

I came here from a different forum because I was tired of the name calling, etc. And lack of civil discourse. I think it's natural and maybe inevitable for discussions to degrade to that point. That we may screw up this great civilization we have may only be a matter of time.

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@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

I go back to two points. We are pack animals and we love to fight. It's in our nature.

I came here from a different forum because I was tired of the name calling, etc. And lack of civil discourse. I think it's natural and maybe inevitable for discussions to degrade to that point. That we may screw up this great civilization we have may only be a matter of time.

Then arnt we right back to this being a result of the dying of the Church...that once the calls to our more civilized natures ended we reverted back to the barborism that our genes are coded with?

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I agree with Hinge that the analogy from families is specious. I've known dozens of families in my lifetime in which the members all had the same world view, and no dissentient conversations. I've also known families in which the members never communicated anything of importance in anything less than a shout, and all conversations were acrimonious.

Most specious of all, though, is this silly, steady drumbeat this joker forwards of the eminent collapse of civilization. It's Chicken Little bullshit. Had this been nothing but a discussion of the internet, it might have had some value. Attempting to extrapolate from that a breakdown in the very fabric of civilization just makes it an absurd and worthless discussion.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Then arnt we right back to this being a result of the dying of the Church...that once the calls to our more civilized natures

what particular church do you think is/was civilized?

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Then arnt we right back to this being a result of the dying of the Church...that once the calls to our more civilized natures ended we reverted back to the barborism that our genes are coded with?

I'm not sure I would agree that the church has ever helped that much. What about the inquisition? There have been many religious wars. I think maybe the time you experienced was the anomaly? The biggest change recently is the speed at which things happen. Change is happening very quickly today and it is very hard for people to keep up. A lot of frictional chaos. It is easy to look back at the 50s and 60s and see a pastoral time. In reality, I don't think that was the case. It may have looked that way to a child. Politics may have been more civil, but remember when Kennedy was shot.

I also don't think I agree with the 'dying of the church' part. I would say that things were only superficially better when the church was stronger.

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@IRFRANK,

I certainly think that the church is dying fast and that when it was a major part of our lives the constant calls to look to God and demands thqt we try to keep the Devil in check mattered. But what about the idea that civilization does not happen if no one is driving toward tempering our instincts for barbarity??? Maybe we need that stern daddy figure threatening us to be good or else, that left up to our own devices we will muck it up every time because of our genetic coding. Maybe the root problem here is that the feminists and just about everyone else went on a crusade to kill paternalistic social order, and that law and order run by a corrupt state does not fill the gap. We need the teaching in the form of lecture to keep us in line, the heavy hand of the law after we do bad is not enough.

I am in a hurry so I hope this post makes sense. Will try to get back to this idea later.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

But what about the idea that civilization does not happen if no one is driving toward tempering our instincts for barbarity???

Wow. You have an issue with feminists? I don't think they were on a crusade to kill paternalistic social order. They just want the same freedoms and rights as their male counterparts. If that kills social order then we need a new kind of order. I think the apparent order brought about by a 'heavy hand of the law' is false security. It may appear to keep people in line, and may do that for a short time period, but does not work in the long run. And it is not so good for those kept in line. I also don't think the heavy hand of the church is such a good thing either. Abuse of power is a real concern.

I believe in the middle view. We all deserve and benefit from basic freedoms. Tolerance is a good thing. Viewing others as evil is usually in the mind of the beholder and is often not real. There needs to be some basic social order, but I'd rather not have someone tempering my instincts.

Our 'Barbarity' will not be kept in check by this heavy hand, it will just be reserved for those in charge.

I would agree that more teaching and 'lecture' could be a good thing. I think one opportunity we miss in a big way is the chance to help educate the masses with media. Today we mostly use it to sell things and disseminate negative examples and attitudes.

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@IRFRANK,

Quote:

I came here from a different forum because I was tired of the name calling, etc. And lack of civil discourse.

Wow, talk about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire! Wink

But the truth is that just about every forum, including those with strict monitoring protocols, gets down to the dirty. There are some posters who simply will not post unless they can be nasty or abusive. And with the safety of anonymity and distance...cyberspace is filled with brave bullies...most of whom would not utter a nasty or abusive word if the confrontation were face to face.

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I think the "we are just recently down out of the trees" explanation is much more important than most of us want to acknowledge. We want to consider ourselves to be a civilized, intelligent species.

We may be.

But for certain, we have not reached even the fringes of our abilities in being civil and intelligent.

We are trying, though...so good for us.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Wow, talk about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire! Wink

Actually the other forum was primarily a motorcycle adventure forum and mostly was very civil. The was a special place called Yo Mamma that was for political and non-motorcycle discussions. It got a bit heated at times.

Just like real life, some people simply think their view is the only one.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

We are trying, though...so good for us.

I wonder about that sometimes. The big obvious question is if our capacity to destroy will out run our capacity to not want to. I believe the key is getting higher living standards to much more of the world. People have much less reason to fight if they are more comfortable. The 3rd world has a long way to go.

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@IRFRANK,

Quote:

some people simply think their view is the only one.

This inspired me Frank, I've rewritten it - for all people.

My view is the only one (that someone with my knowledge of the world and my life experience could have)

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@IRFRANK,

Quote:

The big obvious question is if our capacity to destroy will out run our capacity to not want to.

I often write a sentence similar to this but more encompassing...variations on:

We have evolved technologically to the point where we can destroy ourselves and all other living things on the planet...while NOT evolving philosophically to the point where that possibility would be remote.

We've got a lot of growing up to do just to get along. I hope we do it before we annihilate ourselves and a perfectly fine planet for life to exist.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

I certainly think that the church is dying fast and that when it was a major part of our lives the constant calls to look to God and demands thqt we try to keep the Devil in check mattered. But what about the idea that civilization does not happen if no one is driving toward tempering our instincts for barbarity???

I'd like to reiterate what I said earlier about the growing gap between rich and poor being the source of incivility. It's not that the lack of some cosmic father figure allows us to behave barbarously. It's that there's more to gain from behaving dishonestly in life and self-interestedly and self-righteously in argument. The loss of our Christian value system could also stem from how cut-throat our society has become, now that there's more at stake. Greed used to be a deadly sin; now it's a virtue to people like Paul Ryan.

As far as church is concerned, I do go every Sunday. The fact that my minister is no longer fronting for a stern father figure who stands poised to punish us wicked sinners does not detract from her moral authority. Her authority stems from 8 years of study in philosophy and comparative religion, not from a divine mandate.

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Why has it almost Become Impossible to Converse with and Enjoy Those Who Differ?

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