NASTY SANDY CHURNING UP THE COAST

@Butrflynet,

Come on there are many reasons for example that might cause the lost of city power to a hospital and there are a few reasons other then a cat 1 that might cause subway flooding that I can think of so why was not have precaution in place?

A cat 1 is not that inherently dangers but there still is a need to use common sense when you are building your infrastructure.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

they was given days of warnings

too bad they were listening to you

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@Cycloptichorn,

I been in the system many times and there is no need to shut every small opening where some water could get in.

A few water tight doors along the tunnels lengths and the pumps already in place should keep most of the system dry.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

I been in the system many times and there is no need to shut every small opening where some water could get in.

A few water tight doors along the tunnels lengths and the pumps already in place should keep most of the system dry.

Where, exactly, do you think the pumps are going to pump the water TO in the middle of a 20-30 foot storm surge??!?? Think about how a pump works for a second!

Small openings into the system quickly become large ones as the water pressure forces erosion of the opening. I don't believe 'pressure doors' would have stopped the problem at all - does no good to have pressure doors when water is flooding in equally fast on both sides of the door.

Cycloptichorn

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@ehBeth,

Sorry dear but I would had done an extra check of the back up power systems for anything that might cut city power even for a cat 1 hurricane.

Too bad that the leadership was too busy ordering citizens to leave their homes, getting ready to place the ban on the size of soda containers allow and pressuring new mothers to breast feed to make sure the infrastructure of the city was ready such as the little detail that the city hospitals have working back up power.

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@Cycloptichorn,

You do know that water can be pump out of a submarine under water correct!

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@BillRM,

Only because the submarine is a sealed system. The subway cannot be. Bad analogy on your part.

You're all wet on this one, Bill....

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Think about how a pump works for a second!

What kind of pump are you thinking of as a centrifuge pump would have no problem at all pumping water even if the outlet was underwater.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Sorry but a seal submarine or a leaking submarine it does not matter.

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@BillRM,

By the way a 20 ft of water would mean that you are pumping again a pressure head of roughly 10 psi and large pumps would laugh at that kind of counter pressure.

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@BillRM,

Muppet!

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@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Small openings into the system quickly become large ones as the water pressure forces erosion of the opening

Lord you are not talking about being on the ocean bottom as 32 feet of water have a pressure head of 15 psi and that is not going to be erosion any opening in solid rock short of a time frame of decades if then.

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An amusing story that came out of the great black out of 1967 involved a NYC hospital also.

The hospital was located near one of the rivers and the back up generators was located in a sub basement that needed to be constantly pump dry due to river water seeping in.

Who ever planned this system did not include the pumps to the list of equipments to be power by the backup generators so the generators only was able to run for a few hours before going underwater.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Only because the submarine is a sealed system. The subway cannot be. Bad analogy on your part.

You're all wet on this one, Bill....

Cycloptichorn

My lord you got three votes up on a statement that anyone who had taken even a high school course in physics would or at least should know is incorrect.

Amazing that we live in a technology base civilization and yet most of us do not have even the most basic understanding of the sciences behind the technology.

Let see you was likely thinking a a suction pump in thinking that a pump could not pump water if the outlet was under water. Hell at sea level such a pump can not pump water higher then 32 feet.

High pressure of water able to erode rocks , if you had a column of water of 32 feet or so, is also incorrect as such a column weight is equal to the weight at sea level of a column of air reaching to the top of the atmosphere and that produce a pressure of 15 psi roughly or one atmosphere pressure.

Well do not feel bad as there are three other people that had shown they also lack knowledge of the world we live in and the science that is the foundation of our culture.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

PS werent you and Billy the ones who were touting that someone is "Hyping the hurricane and harm it may cause"?

I said at several points that the doomsdayers might turn out to be right, but that it was not likely. I said a lot of other things too, like that the government shut things down early in the attempt to manipulate the citizens, that the government was claiming high confidence in the projections even though past performance indicates that the projections are more stabs in the dark then science, and that the storm being big in geography does not mean that lots of people will be stomped on...only that lots of people will feel some effects.

the one and only place that i was wrong (and I know that you want me to be wrong) was that I thought that there was no chance that the storm would be worse than the worse case projections, because the "experts" always inflate the projected consequences because they will not often get vilified for over estimating, and because they know that those in power want scare stories to sell. However, the most important number actually came in higher than the worse case projection, that being the NY Harbor surge, which near as I can tell ended up being 9 inches above worse case projection. these guys are the same ones who are nearly constantly also wrong about tsunami projections, so they are well used to after the fact statements to the effect "ya, about that......we are getting better all the time but this is difficult stuff and we have not quite figured it out yet", which is a point that I made earlier.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

You know people with special note to Farmman and Miller you have back up protections for things that mean something to you.

My wife one home have a redone basement that she spend around 20,00o on and as a result she does not wish it to be flooded.

So there is the everyday electric pump, a water pressure power backup pump and real time monitoring as part of her alarm system. The back up pump is check every few months also.

Given how important the subway system is to New York the funds should had been spend to guard even against a rare event and that this was not done is not proof that hurricane Sandy was inherently a costly event just that the city planners did not do their job.

Just as whoever oversaw the backup power plant in that one NYC hospital did not do his or her job.

Maybe not. The resources available to correct anything are limited. Moreover there is a connection between the likelihood of an event; the consequences of it happening; and the money worth spending on correcting or protecting from the consequences.

The granite that underlays Manhattan is very hard & strong, but it is not entirely waterproof. Creating a watertight environment for even most of the hundreds of miles of New York subways is simply not a practical possibility. There may well be some improvements that could be made to the watertight protection of critical electrical switchgear, circuit breakers and train control system components, but entirely eliminating the problem facing new York Subways is likely not possible.

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Quote:

Bloomberg rubbed in that people need to learn to do what he tells them to do. See, one of the biggest problems this storm turned out to be people who didn't leave their homes: "only about half the people we ordered to leave did so. We have to find a better way to impress on people that we don't ask them to leave lightly—it is for their own good."

http://gothamist.com/2012/10/30/video_mayor_bloomberg_to_give_anoth.php

let's see a polling of those in the evac zones, both those who followed commands and those who blew them off, and see if the majority thinks that the orders should be followed.

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People should listen to the warnings..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/nyregion/for-years-warnings-that-storm-damage-could-ravage-new-york.html

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This last summer, I was in New York and had a good time. I am very sad to hear the damage to the city and people there. As I experienced the 3/11/2011 earthquake and the tsunami following that earthquake in Japan, I think I can understand how people feel about the disaster connected to water. I hope the ordinary life will come back soon in New York and the east coast area of the US.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/nyregion/in-an-unexpected-storm-a-horror-movie-made-real.html?emc=tnt&tntemail1=y

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@georgeob1,

Ive got severl cores from a
geothermal exploration project " in Manhttan back in the late 1970's We drilled into the Manhattan Schist the Inwood Marble, and the Fordham Gneiss.Its all Canadian SHield stuff thats been moved around in the TAconic and Alleghenian

Heres a map that one can see why all the tall buildings are in one area of the island (Its old v new technology ) replacing infrastructure in Manhattan would probably men moving the city, so theyll do it as the need hits , and in smaller segments. This may be one of thos times when a "new subway system" like the big dig in Boston, may be proposed (again)

http://3dparks.wr.usgs.gov/nyc/images/fig16.jpg

If you look at the map, the area of bright green is a thrust fault wherein the material underneath is highly permeable and requires pretty tight sealing for any cross isalnd projects (like subway systems nearby)
Fractures abound and finding them nd "Puddling them" is a tk that keeps foundations guys in business.

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NASTY SANDY CHURNING UP THE COAST

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