Is this a specious argument for pro-abortion?

@Foofie,

Let's be honest here... what does one have to do with the other. I'd think a woman who was getting an abortion may not think the sperm donor is good husband material.
But... instead of answering what I said, you feel its ok to ignore it and throw a red herring into the mix. Typical.

As for incest? WTF? What does one have to do with the other? Why would that even be brought up?

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@mysteryman,

Objecting to something isn't the same as wanting it to be illegal. I object to sardines, nasty smelly fish..

You were the one who brought up incest, why don't you say what should be done with a consenting brother and sister first.

At the end of the day aren't you just interfering with what people get up to in their own bedrooms?

1 Reply

@Foofie,

You know none of y'all won't even be arguing over this age old subject of abortion if preventive actions were done because everyone knows contraception is cheaper than a abortion procedure.
So I think the efficient and viable option is to make contraception available to anyone who wants to mount each other but don't wanna have a baby. Because I think that if contraceptive options are not available, some women will definitely turn to abortion even if it's illegal, even the ghetto type of abortion. And that is just plain unhealthy and unsafe.

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@Atom Blitzer,

Atom Blitzer wrote:

You know none of y'all won't even be arguing over this age old subject of abortion if preventive actions were done because everyone knows contraception is cheaper than a abortion procedure.
So I think the efficient and viable option is to make contraception available to anyone who wants to mount each other but don't wanna have a baby. Because I think that if contraceptive options are not available, some women will definitely turn to abortion even if it's illegal, even the ghetto type of abortion. And that is just plain unhealthy and unsafe.

I agree but there is a problem. There are people out there who suggest that providing contraception is just as bad and try to close the doors for people to get their hands on it to use it. Especially young adults. Not to mention in africa the pope tries to demonize the use of contraception by using lies that it increases the chances of getting aids.

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@izzythepush,

You got it wrong.
As long as the people involved are of age to legally give consent, I don't care if its a brother and sister, mother and son, father and daughter, etc.
Its none of my business.

The reason I brought it up is because I have found that. Any of the same people that say a woman can do what she wants with her body, seem to object to incest.
to me, that seems to be a double standard, and I am curious how people can reconcile the 2 different opinions without seeming to be hypocritical.

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@Ceili,

Read my reply to izzy, and you will know why I brought it up.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Let's be honest here... what does one have to do with the other. I'd think a woman who was getting an abortion may not think the sperm donor is good husband material.
But... instead of answering what I said, you feel its ok to ignore it and throw a red herring into the mix. Typical.

As for incest? WTF? What does one have to do with the other? Why would that even be brought up?

You should use the "quote" button, so I know what you are alluding to. Also, I never mentioned incest.

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@Atom Blitzer,

Atom Blitzer wrote:

You know none of y'all won't even be arguing over this age old subject of abortion if preventive actions were done because everyone knows contraception is cheaper than a abortion procedure.
So I think the efficient and viable option is to make contraception available to anyone who wants to mount each other but don't wanna have a baby. Because I think that if contraceptive options are not available, some women will definitely turn to abortion even if it's illegal, even the ghetto type of abortion. And that is just plain unhealthy and unsafe.

In your analysis, you might want to include those ladies that want to use the pregnancy as husband bait.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

You got it wrong.
As long as the people involved are of age to legally give consent, I don't care if its a brother and sister, mother and son, father and daughter, etc.
Its none of my business.

The reason I brought it up is because I have found that. Any of the same people that say a woman can do what she wants with her body, seem to object to incest.
to me, that seems to be a double standard, and I am curious how people can reconcile the 2 different opinions without seeming to be hypocritical.

In my opinion, incest is still a societal taboo. Abortion was once a societal taboo. Today, a portion of the population considers it most natural. Perhaps, a workable analogy is the changed attitude amongst many towards homosexuality?

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

In your analysis, you might want to include those ladies that want to use the pregnancy as husband bait.

Yeah some do try to use this tactic. But guys should be educated about this possibility and take steps to ensure it doesn't get used against them. I have heard stories about women digging discarded condoms out of trash bins after the guy leaves to impregnate themselves. Guys should take caution to discard the used condoms in a way that women can't try to entrap them with this tactic. It almost always comes down to more education and how to protect yourself and be responsible.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Foofie wrote:
In your analysis, you might want to include those ladies that want to use the pregnancy as husband bait.

Yeah some do try to use this tactic. But guys should be educated about this possibility and take steps to ensure it doesn't get used against them. I have heard stories about women digging discarded condoms out of trash bins after the guy leaves to impregnate themselves. Guys should take caution to discard the used condoms in a way that women can't try to entrap them with this tactic. It almost always comes down to more education and how to protect yourself and be responsible.

Then Yossarian was right (Catch-22). They wanted his precious bodily fluids.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Then Yossarian was right (Catch-22). They wanted his precious bodily fluids.

Well not all women are like that, I like to think that I am not. Trapping someone into a relationship doesn't sound like the type of foundation you really want to have in a relationship. Id much rather work on it in another more substantial way. Unless their motivation is purely financial then it becomes a criminal act in a way.

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@Foofie,

Quote:

Abortion was once a societal taboo. Today, a portion of the population considers it most natural

I wouldn't exactly consider it "natural". A miscarriage is a "natural" spontaneous abortion.

I think today it's a subject we can discuss more openly, although I think that, for some, it still carries some stigma and shame.

It's a medical procedure. A medical procedure to terminate a pregnancy. And today, it's a legal and safe medical procedure.

And that's an important point. Prior to it's legalization, women still sought out abortions, but they were not done under properly safe medical conditions by licensed doctors. And that placed the women at risk of infection, bodily injury, and death. Affluent women could afford to travel to countries where abortion was legal, but most women in this country had to rely on these back-alley butchers.
And, if even that wasn't available, women tried to self abort, often by awful methods.

But, that's how desperate those women felt about their need to terminate a pregnancy.

We're not just talking about a woman's right to do what she wants with her body. More specifically, we're talking about a woman's right to make medical choices regarding her body, including access to appropriate safe medical procedures, in a dignified medical setting, to terminate a pregnancy.

I think women today are relieved that, if they choose to have this procedure, that it can be done under appropriate, and sterile, medical conditions. But I have yet to know any woman who was blasé about having the procedure done---and I've known a number of women, both married and single, who had an abortion, and it was an emotionally wrenching decision for all of them. But, for those particular women, it was a better alternative than the pain of bearing a child they felt unable to care for, either emotionally, or physically, or financially (or all three), and a better alternative than the emotional pain of carrying a fetus to term, and then giving it up for adoption. Not all women are able to emotionally handle the loss of giving up a full term baby for adoption. For them, abortion becomes not the better alternative, but the more necessary alternative.

But, judging by the women I've known, the decision to have an abortion involved considerable internal emotional conflict, and they all wished that they were never forced to make such a choice. And they did all feel forced, by some aspect of their circumstance, to make that choice.

So I think there is some mis-characterization of the kind of woman who choices to abort, and her emotional feelings, or lack of them, about having to abort, being expressed in this thread that doesn't fit with the women I've known who had abortions. For them, it was one of the hardest, and most sorrowful, decisions they could make in their life, but it was the only option they felt they could live with.

I don't think those women deserve anyone's scorn for the choice they made.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

I think you've muddied the water a bit. This is not an argument we have over here, the godsquad have very little influence. At the end of the day it's the woman's right to choose. If you try to ban abortion you end up with backstreet abortions and a far higher death toll.

All this stuff about incest and rape is brought up by the religious nutters. If they're banning abortion then there are degrees, some say rape victims could be exempt, which would normally include victims of incest. (Victims, to distinguish the brother/sister consensual scenario we talked about earlier.) Most cases are father/daughter, and are not consensual. There's also the increased chance of birth defects.

In any event, this is a side issue. I support our law at it is. It's the woman's right to choose. If she gets pregnant every Friday night, and has an abortion every Monday morning, it's her right. And it's a right I would defend right down the line.

Holland has one of the lowest rates of teenage pregnancy in the world, and that's because they're not uptight about sex. If you want to lower abortions, you need frank and honest conversations about sex and free access to contraception.

4 Replies

@izzythepush,

All that is based on a legal judgement about when human life begins.

Those who think it begins at conception consider abortion to be murder and consistent applications of a woman's right to choose then includes infanticide which is not considered a crime in some places. Also included in the right are abortions immediately prior to birth.

An arbitrary number of weeks is ridiculous.

The "godsquad" is a red herring. So are considerations of incest and rape. The life of the unborn child is the only significant factor. Not all non-religious people support abortion. Ovid railed against abortion and he was no member of any godsquad.

If you want a frank and honest conversation about the matter then let us see an abortion on TV and the clinics where they are performed positioned more conveniently rather than discreetly buried away and masquerading under ambiguous trade names.

Your argument izzy seems very convenient for men. I think a woman who had an abortion once a week, as you suggest, would not be long before she was sectioned.

And the woman has chosen to get pregnant by allowing herself to be shagged by a bloke who has no interest in her welfare.

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@spendius,

I didn't say I approved of the choice of the hypothetical woman in the example I gave.

As far as I'm concerned it's the woman's right to choose, it's her body.

I think our law is fine the way it stands right now.

Godsquad is not a red herring, they're starting to spread their malign influence in the Tories. Nadine Dorries stands out as a prime example.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

All that is based on a legal judgement about when human life begins.

In my opinion a human life doesn't begin until it can survive outside the womb. If you take a clump of cells that make up the fetus out of the womb can they survive? Can the endure or continue to live outside the womb? If the fetus can not survive on it's own outside the womb then it does not qualify as a human with rights. If it dependent upon the mother's body to develop and survive then it should be at the mercy of the mother's wishes. Simple and fair.

1 Reply

@JPB,

JPB wrote:

Because they tend to think that women belong barefoot, pregnant, behind the stove, tending to the children, and knitting their sweaters, socks and hats while the he-man slays the mighty beast and brings home the bacon. You know.... the good old days!

It's "barefoot in the winter; pregnant in the summer".

Try to get it right next time.

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@izzythepush,

The godsquad argument is a red herring. The godsquad here are in favour of driving on the left. Nobody drives on the right because of that. The godsquad should get out of the debate because they are giving people a free ride.

How many women talk about their abortions like they are fond of doing their other operations? There is deep shame attached to abortion. Not a 0ne on TV and discreet industrial units. Neither point did you answer. Nor did you answer the point about men escaping their responsibility by landing a woman with this shame. I hope you don't say he is not responsible.

A lady in Texas is doing five years for exercising her free choice to have sex with four footballers old enough to fight in Afghanistan.

I will never vote as long as abortion is legal.

Your use of the word "malign" makes your logic unimpeachable. Whether that usage in unimpeachable is another matter. Resorting to such a tactic demonstrates the vacuity of your position.

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@spendius,

Quote:

I will never vote as long as abortion is legal.

What in your opinion is the offense against the fetus that abortion presents, Spendius?

1 Reply

Is this a specious argument for pro-abortion?

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