20
   

Is this a specious argument for pro-abortion?

 
 
Foofie
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:33 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Extrapolating your thought, abortions should be illegal, because of the negative effect emotionally on those that consider abortion murder. Really simple, put that way, in context of considering the health of others.


What about the negative effects both emotionally and physical on the participants. It's a hard hearted woman who treats abortion like a skin tuck.


"Hard hearted woman"? Women are not "sugar and spice and everything nice." In my opinion, women are hunters, just like men were once hunters. Women just hunt men, and some are even willing to steal a man from another woman (that is raising the man's children). Hard hearted might just be a euphemism.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:33 am
@spendius,
Quote:

What about the negative effects both emotionally and physical on the participants.

Mastectomies often have negative effects, both emotionally and physically, on "the participants". Would you suggest that women not have mastectomies?
Or hysterectomies? Or amputations of limbs?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:34 am
@firefly,
We are not talking about blood transfusion or donations. Nor are we talking about standard medical treatments for disease.

The vast bulk of the 50, 000,000 abortions since R/W were performed on healthy young women for reasons of personal convenience.

It is a category all on its own. We do know that blood transfusions have caused a lot of problems. Despite which I still support them. But I don't have no reservations about them.
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:37 am
@ehBeth,
I have said "I'll leave you to agree among yourselves", or words to that effect, when going out of the pub for a smoke.

I had wondered who would be the first to bring it up and I have to confess that I made you favourite Beth.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:38 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
for reasons of personal convenience.


and still nothing to do with you or what you want
ehBeth
 
  2  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:40 am
@spendius,
I'm sure the other pub-dwellers have a similar reaction to mine when they hear you promising to leave.
firefly
 
  3  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:43 am
@spendius,
Quote:
We are not talking about blood transfusion or donations. Nor are we talking about standard medical treatments for disease.

It is the same issue--strangers making a medical/heath care decision for other specific individuals. And if Jehovah's Witnesses made the decision for you, you wouldn't be allowed a blood transfusion under any circumstances.
Quote:
The vast bulk of the 50, 000,000 abortions since R/W were performed on healthy young women for reasons of personal convenience.

That's untrue.

The most common reason given is "life circumstance problem/issue"--which is quite different.

And we're not just talking about how a woman is affected by a 9 month pregnancy, we're talking about an impact on her life, in terms of her personal responsibilities, for at least the next 18 years.
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:54 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
and still nothing to do with you or what you want


I know what I want. And I'll admit it is a selfish motive. I want to be able to look at women like I used to and not be wondering how many had been in such an undignified position as on an abortion table. With the number of abortions at the figure it is it is impossible not to imagine that a few in the pub have had one and I'm in favour of them wearing some sign to tell us which ones they are. It is certainly not fair on the women who have not had one to be indistinguishable from the ones who have. And the more abortions there are the larger the problem becomes.

I will admit that it is possible for me to take an interest in something else. Which I try to do. I have no interest in women who have had this operation or in those who encourage them. None. Zero. Abortion droop takes effect I'm afraid. How can I help that?

So yes--I'm selfish.

spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:57 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
I'm sure the other pub-dwellers have a similar reaction to mine when they hear you promising to leave.


In many decades of pub life I have never suspected such a thing. You are starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel Beth.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 12:00 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
And we're not just talking about how a woman is affected by a 9 month pregnancy, we're talking about an impact on her life, in terms of her personal responsibilities, for at least the next 18 years.


For life in my experience. And she should have thought of that when she hopped into bed with a bloke who couldn't take care of business.

Germaine Greer gives the main reason why so many men fail in this regard. It is unsuitable for this thread.
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 12:03 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
That's untrue.

The most common reason given is "life circumstance problem/issue"--which is quite different.


Yeah--the most common reason given eh? Rehearsed from articles in magazines.

Tell me what proportion of the 50,000, 000 were performed on unhealthy women.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 12:13 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I want to be able to look at women like I used to and not be wondering how many had been in such an undignified position as on an abortion table...

Well, you're the only one who controls what goes on inside your own head. If you don't want to wonder about such things, then stop thinking about them.

And practically all adult women have been in that "undignified position"--since that's standard for a gynecological examination. Better not look at any women then, spendi.

And since abortion methods can, and do, include the simple ingestion of a pill, to induce a miscarriage, there is nothing particularly undignified about the procedure either. Women undergo similar procedures for other health and medical issues. It becomes considerably less dignified when the procedures are not carried out under legal, medically safe, circumstances.
spendius
 
  0  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 12:23 pm
@firefly,
I'm talking about women who have thought fit to kill their own baby. All the processes are undignified.

Quote:
Well, you're the only one who controls what goes on inside your own head. If you don't want to wonder about such things, then stop thinking about them.


That's repression. I'm surprised, nay amazed, at you advising repression. Not that it works with me.

I can't imagine Botticelli's Aphrodite having had an abortion. Or any of the Madonnas.

We'll have to put Munch in the galleries.
firefly
 
  2  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:02 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
And she should have thought of that when she hopped into bed with a bloke who couldn't take care of business...

You have odd ideas about the types of women who do have abortions, and their reasons for doing so.
Quote:
All social and demographic groups are represented among women having abortions; the characteristics of this population have been discussed elsewhere. More than half of respondents (56%) were in their 20s; women in their 30s accounted for 22% of abortions and adolescents for 19%. Seventeen percent of women were married, 67% had never been married and the remainder had previously been married; 31% of single women were cohabiting. The majority of women (61%) had one or more children. Women with family incomes less than 200% of the federal poverty level accounted for 57% of abortions; 27% were poor (had incomes below 100% of poverty).

More than half of women obtaining abortions in 2000 (54%) had been using a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant...In 2000, approximately 15% of women had been using the most effective methods—1% used long-acting methods (sterilization, the IUD, implants or injectables) and 14% the pill. Twenty-eight percent of all women having abortions had used the male condom, down from 32% in 1994 (the only method to decline by more than three percentage points). Withdrawal and periodic abstinence had been used by roughly one in 10 women having abortions...

Decreases in income and education are associated with increased contraceptive nonuse: Women with family incomes below 300% of the federal poverty level were more likely than women with higher incomes not to be using a method of birth control in the month they became pregnant...women with less than a college degree were significantly more likely than college graduates to be nonusers...

The survey results support the concern that economic disadvantage makes it harder to obtain contraceptives. Women with incomes lower than 300% of poverty were more likely than the highest-income women to indicate this reason for not having used birth control...

Across all subgroups, women who became pregnant while using a contraceptive method were more likely to have been relying on male condoms than on any other method ...Married women and those with college degrees tend to be older than others, and these women were more likely than unmarried and less-educated women to have been using methods other than the pill or condom. Never-married women were more likely than others to have relied on the condom, whereas cohabiting women reported the highest levels of pill use in the month they became pregnant.

In 2000, 1.3% of women having abortions reported having taken emergency contraceptive pills to prevent the pregnancy...Trussell and colleagues have estimated that for each pregnancy that occurs after use of emergency contraceptive pills, three pregnancies are prevented. In 2000, 1.3 million abortions were performed in the United States. If 17,000 (1.3%)*§ pregnancies that ended in abortion occurred after the use of emergency contraceptive pills, approximately 51,000 pregnancies that would have ended in abortion were prevented...The increase in the use of emergency contraceptive pills may account for a significant part of the recent reduction in abortions nationally: The number of abortions in 2000 was 110,000 fewer than in 1994, and an estimated 47,000 more abortions were prevented by emergency contraception in 2000 than in 1994; thus, emergency contraception could account for 43% of the decrease in abortions....

On the basis of our survey findings, we estimate that of the 1.3 million women who underwent induced abortions in 2000, 608,000 had not been using a contraceptive method around the time they became pregnant, 610,000 had been using a method but not consistently or correctly, and 95,000 had thought they were using the method perfectly but became pregnant because of method failure....

Clearly, more efforts need to be made to provide health insurance coverage for poor and low-income women (and men), as well as increased funding for family planning services. Family planning and other reproductive health services need to provide women and their partners with information about and access to a wide range of methods so they can choose, and receive, the ones best suited to their current lifestyles, including newly available and highly effective methods....
Substantial proportions of adolescents who were not using contraceptives—particularly of those younger than 18—indicated that fear of their parents' finding out they were sexually active was a barrier to contraceptive use. Making sure that adolescents continue to have access to confidential reproductive health care services and increasing their awareness of these services are likely to result in greater contraceptive use and fewer unintended pregnancies.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3429402.html

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:17 pm
@spendius,
Quote:

I can't imagine Botticelli's Aphrodite having had an abortion. Or any of the Madonnas.

Well, good for you. So there are some female images you can gaze upon without wondering how they look with their feet in the stirrups of an examination table. At least the Madonnas are spared the indignity of becoming the subject of your intrusive fantasies.

The solution, of course, spendi, is for you to simply avoid any contact with real living women. For your own mental health, of course...
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:57 pm
@firefly,
I do more or less. There are a few I can't avoid though. I am aware that women have no duty to be admirable to me or anybody else.

No doubt your mental health is in good shape. I bet you insist on that. People who talk about such things a lot usually are at least "fine!"
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 03:20 pm
@spendius,
In fact ff, now you have brought the subject up, it has long been a view of mine that feminism is a political movement dedicated to releasing women from the bondage of having to be admirable to men perpetrated by women who have little chance of ever being admirable to men and led by a few opportunists spotting an uninhabited niche in the marketplace of unfocussed mobs and the ready-to-hand means to exploit them. Modern media I mean and a prurient interest in anything to do with jahangas.

It's a view some men hold who think they are all the same with a bag over their head.

Such women generally find men a bit of a nuisance or, as one of the leaders once said on TV with her ex-husband on the panel, "a little local irritation." And I suppose we are really. "Like carrots--cheap and plentiful and easily cooked". (That's Prof. Greer. The other being Julie Burchill.) I heard that the SCUM crowd were up for raiding maternity wards and killing all the lads.

I just think abortion is horrible. It has **** all to do with the Pope.

spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 03:37 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I See You Standing On The Other Side
I Don’T Know How The River Got So Wide
I Loved You Baby, Way Back When
And All The Bridges Are Burning...


Tower of Song.
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 04:48 pm
@spendius,
Which is a bit simple really compared to Bob Dylan.

Quote:
Up on the white veranda
She wears a necktie and a Panama hat
Her passport shows a face
From another time and place
She looks nothing like that
And all the remnants of her recent past
Are scattered in the wild wind
She walks across the marble floor
Where a voice from the gambling room is calling her to come on in
She smiles, walks the other way
As the last ship sails and the moon fades away
From Black Diamond Bay.
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 11 Sep, 2012 04:51 pm
@spendius,
"The ghosts of 'lectricity howl in the bones of her face."
0 Replies
 
 

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