HOLOCAUST........ Fact or Fiction?

@parados,

parados wrote:

I didn't make that leap based on only one piece of evidence. Where did the 6 million Jews go that dissappeared?

Argument from ignorance. Just because I can't specifically say what happened to each one it shouldn't be assumed that they were gassed. That is not the reality. The six million number was a made up figure. These people didn't even exist to begin with. The number is fictitious which is why they can't be addressed.

parados wrote:

Skeptical why? Are you saying Himmler was lying? Why would he do such a thing in 1942? Your failure to explain away the evidence shows you are starting with a bias and not looking at evidence

That is simple to answer. Political motivation. It is clear that there was a disconnect that Hitler used to put a wedge between jews and christians living in germany. The christians blamed many of the economic problems on the jews and hitler took advantage of that hatred. Just like if americans were to blame mexicans for losing their jobs and a political leader took advantage of such hatred or racism and rounded up all of them and imprisoned them.

This gives huge political power to those who attempt to solve these problems in ways that are pretty inhumane. But they happen all the time and even the US is not exempt from doing similar to it's own people.

parados wrote:

That is a ridiculous argument Krumple. It makes no sense. Because someone didn't see something happen is not proof that it didn't happen. Several million NYers didn't see the WTC towers fall on 9/11. Is that evidence that they are still standing? Your argument is not logical or even rational. All the guards were not involved in executions. One needs to look at those that WERE. Not rely only on those that were not there.

I don't even know why I bother to have this conversation when you can't even understand a simple statement. Your analogy proves that you have no idea what I am even talking about. Why would observation dictate reality? I am saying that when a victim has something to gain from lying they will tell lies.

Just like the truthers do on the conspiracy of 911. They invent things all the time and have testimony for all sorts of things that are absurd. It is simply not reliable when someone has something to gain by lying. You have to turn to the physical evidence because the people are not reliable witnesses if they have motivation to lie.

The physical evidence does not support the ability to exterminate 6 million people. Simply is not possible. At least not how it has been documented to have occurred. A very short investigation into the data will reveal that they did not have the means necessary to carry out hundreds of thousands of murders and disposing of the bodies. Sure there are pictures of dead bodies but they don't add up to six million. Not to mention the pictures don't actually reveal how they died. All these little bits are blown out of proportions and exaggerated.

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@Krumple,

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Argument from ignorance.

Yes, you are.

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Just because I can't specifically say what happened to each one it shouldn't be assumed that they were gassed.

I never made such an assumption. In fact I would never claim they were all gassed. The evidence shows many died of other causes. However the evidence also shows that some were gassed and some executed in other ways.

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@parados,

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Like I said, you leave no room for disagreement.

That's hilarious coming from you, P.

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If one doesn't agree with you completely and totally you call them stupid.

You mean like you're doing with Krumple and Mark?

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But if you aren't willing to look at how humans act in general then there is no room for discussion.

But yet you sanctimonious buggers love to discuss all the other bad guys in the world, leaving out, completely, the good ole US of A.

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Has the US done bad things? Yes.
Are they worse than the Nazis? No

This is exactly what I mean. Not "bad things", P, war crimes on a massive scale, terrorism that makes others look like amateurs. The US is as bad as the Nazis. The US has also had death camps. Regular troops have, regularly, since day one, committed war crimes, even against their own.

Y'all won't and don't discuss it because you just can't bring yourselves to be honest. Walter H is showing an honesty that has never, not once been shown by any American, except Calamity Jane and Robert Gentel.

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@Krumple,

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Why would observation dictate reality? I am saying that when a victim has something to gain from lying they will tell lies.

Which in no way explains the statements I posted earlier by guards. They were not victims. They had no reason to lie. The statements related similar things even though the guards didn't know each other and had never met.

You pull out one part of the evidence, examine it in a vacuum and then discard it because you can come up with some reason why it might be false. You never examine the evidence as a whole where evidence supports other evidence. It's a rather nice way to keep yourself in the dark but it doesn't pass as intelligent evidence gathering.

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@parados,

parados wrote:

If Himmler's numbers are correct and I see no evidence from you to not believe them. They could have easily killed 2 million Jews in less than 2 years. It is not only logistically possible. It is impossible for you to provide evidence to deny it.

Not only have I mentioned several reasons why it is not possible but it is well documented. You offer nothing at all other than a "Nah uhh" in response to anything I have provided.

The design of the camps. The fact that there was expansion plans on all of them. Why the need to expand a camp with buildings to house prisoners when you are just going to gas them? Seems like a waste of resources and man power. Yet this gets swept under the rug as if it wasn't the case. There are many documents that support this but get ignored by people like you.

There are many reasons I have already given of how it was not possible to carry out in the time frame given. The building design of the "gas chambers" was not suitable for mass killing and handling of the bodies. Anyone who has studied the design lay out and how the system functioned would immediately notice there is a major bottle neck in how these buildings were set up. It reveals holes in the testimonies of the people who claimed gassing happened.

The boot theory is funny because it is a fake photograph. All they did was construct a wooden support that was angled which a thin layer of boots were piled onto to give the impression of a large pile of boots were collected. You can even go there today and see the same pile of boots being supported by a back drop of plywood and false bottom.

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@parados,

parados wrote:

Which in no way explains the statements I posted earlier by guards. They were not victims. They had no reason to lie.

Sure they might not be direct victims but they definitely do have motivation to lie. If a person wanted to perpetuate a lie what better person to get to admit something happened than the very person involved? Pay them off to tell lies will buy you credibility.

parados wrote:

You pull out one part of the evidence, examine it in a vacuum and then discard it because you can come up with some reason why it might be false. You never examine the evidence as a whole where evidence supports other evidence. It's a rather nice way to keep yourself in the dark but it doesn't pass as intelligent evidence gathering.

Some so called evidence might not be reliable like witness testimony. It should be taken with extreme caution. Even court cases are rarely ever based on a persons testimony. Almost all cases are based on physical evidence because people have motivations to lie or impose their own ideas into what they claimed they experienced.

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@parados,

The whole argument about Holocaust denial requires such a huge global conspiracy, and for so many people to keep quiet that it beggars belief.

The classified nature of Bletchley Park's computer Colossus only required that some intelligence operatives, with high level clearance in the CIA and MI5, and those people working at Bletchley Park keep quiet. Even that couldn't stay a secret, and if anything could be kept secret it was Colossus.

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Information about Colossus began to emerge publicly in the late 1970s, after the secrecy imposed was broken when Colonel Winterbotham published his book The Ultra Secret. More recently, a 500-page technical report on the Tunny cipher and its cryptanalysis – entitled General Report on Tunny – was released by GCHQ to the national Public Record Office in October 2000; the complete report is available online, and it contains a fascinating paean to Colossus by the cryptographers who worked with it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer

So, if the Holocaust had been a hoax there would be substantial information around that proved it was false. There isn't, no credible historian denies the Holocaust, only rabid anti-Semites and morons do.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

The whole argument about Holocaust denial requires such a huge global conspiracy, and for so many people to keep quiet that it beggars belief.

Actually it doesn't when you use an attack on anyone who questions the validity of the data. If you just write them off as antisemitic then people shy away from challenging the data. No one wants to be branded as racist or discriminatory so they avoid getting involved. Research becomes one sided and favors the side using the antisemitic claims. If the it were true then there wouldn't be any need for using it to call someone out. It is very typical and usually comes when reality doesn't support the claims.

They know their arguments are weak and lies so they use terms like antisemitic to threaten off any one investigating the claims.

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@Krumple,

I didn't say you were necessarily an anti-Semite, I did give you option of being a moron.

Actually I think you're both.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

I didn't say you were necessarily an anti-Semite, I did give you option of being a moron.

Here is the thing. If it is true then there is absolutely no reason to be or feel threatened when someone questions the validity of the data. If it really happened then there should be evidence to support it. I am saying the evidence to support it is weak. This is when those who want to perpetuate the lies jump in and use their defense mechanism to get investigators to quit looking for the truth.

If it is true, you shouldn't feel threatened.

The same happens when people investigate religion. People get all offended by it because they know that there is a chance that people might start discovering the truth and they feel threatened by it so instead of feeling confident in their beliefs they attack the truth seeker.

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@Krumple,

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The design of the camps. The fact that there was expansion plans on all of them. Why the need to expand a camp with buildings to house prisoners when you are just going to gas them?

OK. Let's examine that. Gassing was NOT planned from the beginning. When are the expansion plans from? This all needs to be put in the time frame. You want to pull it out and examine it as stand alone evidence.

Not all camps were used for extermination. Please provide us with the expansion plans for Belsen, Auschwitz, Treblinka.

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The building design of the "gas chambers" was not suitable for mass killing and handling of the bodies.

Really? I haven't seen you examine any building design. I have only seen you make unsubstantiated claims.

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@Krumple,

I don't feel remotely threatened, it's just very tiring when someone is so stupid that they think ignoring a preponderance of well documented evidence in favour of wild theories on anti-Semitic websites is a manifestation of free thinking. It's not it's a manifestation of mind-boggling stupidity.

As a member of the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, I must say that your comments are more harmful to the Palestinian's cause than anything Israel's most passionate supporters come out with.

Israel treats the Palestinians dreadfully, and it uses the spectre of anti-Semitism to keep the Jewish diaspora quiet. They don't criticise Israel because they need the safety of Israel, should people start goose stepping again. Your ignorent comments play right into the hands of the Israeli PR machine, because they allow any criticism of Israel to be seen as motivated by anti-Semitism, not fellow feeling for an oppressed people.

Holocaust denial makes justice for Palestine less likely, not that that should bother you, as you seem to be motivated by spite and malice to the exclusion of everything else.

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@Krumple,

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If a person wanted to perpetuate a lie what better person to get to admit something happened than the very person involved? Pay them off to tell lies will buy you credibility.

Without evidence of any such pay off, it is YOU that lacks credibility.

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Some so called evidence might not be reliable like witness testimony. It should be taken with extreme caution.

Of course. Which is why their testimony is compared to the physical evidence. No evidence is taken alone without corroboration from other sources.

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@parados,

Krumple wrote:

The design of the camps. The fact that there was expansion plans on all of them. Why the need to expand a camp with buildings to house prisoners when you are just going to gas them?

parados wrote:

OK. Let's examine that. Gassing was NOT planned from the beginning. When are the expansion plans from? This all needs to be put in the time frame. You want to pull it out and examine it as stand alone evidence.

The expansion plans came late in the use of some of the camps. They were trying to increase the capacities to hold more prisoners and needed the space. It wasn't something that was suggested before they were holding prisoners.

parados wrote:

Not all camps were used for extermination. Please provide us with the expansion plans for Belsen, Auschwitz, Treblinka.

I shouldn't have to do your homework for you. There are many resources that clearly document these expansion plans to accommodate additional prisoners.

Krumple wrote:

The building design of the "gas chambers" was not suitable for mass killing and handling of the bodies.

parados wrote:

Really? I haven't seen you examine any building design. I have only seen you make unsubstantiated claims.

Once again, I shouldn't have to do, your homework for you. It is well documented that the design and lay out of the camps were not suited for massive extermination projects. The way the buildings were laid out and what was involved in moving the bodies around was just not logistically efficient.

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@parados,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=kDKw0f95k7Q&NR=1

Former President Jimmy Carter. I guess I am not the only moron who thinks that Israel is stealing land and killing palestinians.

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@Krumple,

Unlike you, Carter isn't a Holocaust denier.

Stop trying to feign sympathy with the Palestinians, it's obvious you don't give a **** about them.

This thread isn't about Israel/Palestine, it's about denying the Holocaust.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Unlike you, Carter isn't a Holocaust denier.

Stop trying to feign sympathy with the Palestinians, it's obvious you don't give a **** about them.

This thread isn't about Israel/Palestine, it's about denying the Holocaust.

Cry cry cry. Is that all you are capable of?

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@izzythepush,

All so true; I've had the opportunity to talk to a Palestinian woman in the old city, and she shared her life in Israel. She doesn't have the freedom to travel in her own country even though her family has lived in Israel for many generations.

That US politicians continue to support Israel's democracy is a sham.

I'll be in Israel again in October, and will report back what we observe. During my first trip throughout Isreael, we saw checkpoints where Palestinians could not pass. Even Bethlehem is a walled in city - resembling a prison.

If that's democracy, my education about politics have all been misrepresented.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

The funny thing about comparing these two things is that had germany not banned owning private firearms it would have been much harder for the germans to round up the jews.

I admit that before 1871 the various countries in what than became the German Reich had their weapon laws - which all were valid until 1918, if the didn't oppose the Reichs law.
They only were more restricted in 1919 due to the Versailles treaty. The Nazis made a new weapon law, which allowed nearly everyone to have weapons ... when they had functions in the party. From the Nuremberg laws onwards, Jews, criminals, homosexuals, Roma and Sinti, leftwinged people ... actually all those, who mainly were sent to the Kzs, weren't allowed to have weapons anymore.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Hitler himself was quoted stating that it would be insanity to invade Switzerland since they have a natural well armed militia.

The non banning firearm argument is bogus data once again. Prior to Hitler's election germany had done several movements to ban privately owned firearms. This can not be refuted yet many anti-gun activists try to promote lies once again by spreading false data.

a) could you please give that Hitler quote
b) could you please give a single quote for those "several movements". I mean, I certainly can have overlooked something, but as far as I know it was exactly opposite.

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HOLOCAUST........ Fact or Fiction?

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