25
   

The distinction between war and murder becomes a fine one...

 
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 05:02 am
@Setanta,
And, as you well know, Charles I plotted with the Irish to have himself reinstated after he'd already been beaten. Cromwell didn't decide to go after the Irish on a whim.

And, if I remember right, Cromwell's actions were generally applauded on your side of the pond at the time.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 05:05 am
There is a possibility that drone attacks in distant places are designed to test and perfect the technology in case it is ever required to be brought to bear on American citizens.
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 05:06 am
@Joe Nation,
Quote:

I would rather a hundred radicals and their families be vaporized than a single US soldier step foot on foreign soil.


Your problem is with the demoKKKrats and Gaea-worshipers who refuse to allow us to have any of our own energy resources. We should not have to give a rat's ass what goes on in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, or any other such places, other than for bombing them when they start to build nuclear weapons to aim at us of course.

We now have an army of people walking around with missing arms and legs due to this lack of energy resources.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 05:12 am
@Setanta,
And, not all Irish historians cast Cromwell in such an unforgiving light.

Quote:
Tom Reilly (born 1960) is an Irish author and newspaper columnist (Life of Reilly, Drogheda Independent), who has written books on Oliver Cromwell and religion, as well as a book based on his own newspaper columns among others. To date in total, he has published eight books, two of which have been conventionally published, the other six have been self-published. A native of Drogheda, County Louth, Reilly is a director of a local printing company called Burex Manufacturing Ltd. of Dunleer, Louth, and a founder director of the Myteam.ie brand, which launched in late 2008. He spent most of his working life in the printing and allied trades and is an avid local historian.

Reilly's best-known work on Cromwell is the highly contentious tome, Cromwell – An Honourable Enemy: The Untold Story of the Cromwellian Invasion of Ireland (1999), which holds that Cromwell did not intentionally target civilians during the campaign. He was quoted as stating: "Cromwell's entire Irish mission was fought on a purely military basis, and it is to his enormous credit that he never once departed from those parameters."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Reilly_(author)

In Tom Reilly's own words.

Quote:
Primarily as a result of the work of nineteenth century nationalists (notably John Prendergast and Fr Denis Murphy), Cromwell has for most Irish people become the personification of barbarity, religious intolerance and English conquest. He has been accused of being a war criminal and of being an early ethnic cleanser. They recount tales of thousands of defenceless Irish citizens, men, women and children, all put to the sword at the hands of “Old Ironsides” and his men during their scorched earth campaign.

In actual fact Cromwell was framed.

Cromwell – An Honourable Enemy first saw the light of day in 1999 and has been largely dismissed by most scholars. Although some academics welcomed it with a certain ambivalence, it has certainly not been adopted by many – although it has been received more generously outside Ireland. Yet – and this is most remarkable – it has never been seriously challenged by any historian anywhere.

Michael O Siochru leads the charge of protesters. Yet his recently published God’s Executioner falls abysmally short of presenting a serious challenge to Honourable Enemy. Amazingly he engages in wild speculation. I’m still shocked by his incredible assertions on this matter, with nothing solid whatsoever to back it up. The facts are there for all to see. This is not rocket science.

In fact one wonders at the erudite author’s motivation in making such assiduous efforts to interpret the well-known and oft-quoted contemporary sources in such an inequitable, some might say biased, way. Instead, Ó Siochrú and his ilk should be running to the printing presses to (at least) temper the school textbooks in order that they promulgate a balanced view of the events.

The promotional literature accompanying the book highlights the fact that the same author has scripted the two-part documentary series on Irish television station RTE this September about Cromwell in Ireland.

In this book he has gone out on a limb, put his reputation on the line so to speak, and if this is the best shot he can take to justify a civilian massacre on a large scale, it looks like he will live to regret it. Several experts of the period come to mind who might be inclined to take a different, more even-handed, view of the available evidence.

Of course civilians could have got caught in the crossfire in Drogheda and Wexford, killed as a result of collateral damage, etc. etc. etc. Well, duh! But there was no policy to kill the innocent, nor is there any concrete evidence that suggests such a thing occurred.

Historians have taken a wide birth of my book because I have entered their world and proved them (generations of academics) wrong. I have in fact taught my granny how to suck eggs. First they castigated me, then they dismissed me, then some of them (Taidgh O Hannrachain) even said they said that they knew this all along – it was nothing new!!!.

If they knew this all along, then why in the name of all that is holy are we still delivering nineteenth century propaganda to children in the 21st century?

The historian James Graham Leyburn has said of Cromwell’s campaign in Ireland: ‘What Cromwell did deserves to be ranked with the horrors perpetrated by Gengis Khan. His pacification of Ireland has left scars on that country which have never been forgotten or forgiven.’

Oliver Cromwell is completely innocent of killing the ordinary unarmed people of Ireland and I defy anyone to prove otherwise.


http://edwardvallance.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/tom-reilly-cromwell-my-declaration-of-war/

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 05:16 am
@izzythepush,
The prospect of an independent Ireland could have easily led to an alliance with Spain similar to that of US alliances with various states such as the ROC or the Soviet alliance with Cuba.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 05:19 am
@aidan,
Thank you, aiden.

At least you are addressing the problems we are facing right now.

Who gives a **** about Cromwell & all the other examples of past divisive history which none of us can change?

What are we going to do about the problems which are so real right now?
Where do you people on this thread stand, on the real injustices which are happening to people who are in no position to defend themselves against the obscene aggression of drone bombings?
izzythepush
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 05:46 am
@msolga,
I think I've already addressed that Felix, but if you're English, and you engage with an Irish American, it's very hard to avoid talking about Cromwell.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 05:53 am
@izzythepush,
My "problem", izzy, is that I doubt that Cromwell has anything remotely to do with Boomerang's intention for this discussion .

And also that so few posts here are actually addressing the questions posed by the articles she posted.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 06:02 am
@izzythepush,
I'd be interested to know what source you have for American public opinion in the 1650s. Frankly, i think you're probably doing what you do so often--making it up as you go along.

The point is not the flimsy justification for invading Ireland--in case you are that ignorant of your own history, Charles I had been executed in January, 1649. The point is the savagery with which Parliament's army behaved, and the treatment of the Irish in other respects such as being carted off to be slaves outside their homeland.

You always prance around preening yourself on your freedom from the pernicious patriotism which you sneeringly ascribe to Americans. But the least whiff of criticism of an Englishman and you get hysterical. Your latest bigoted slur of Irish-Americans misses the mark, i didn't bring up Cromwell. You were responding to Joe, not me. First you dragged out Vietnam, which constitutes a tu quoque fallacy (more on that in a moment). The entire butcher's bill for Vietnam pales in comparison to the killings and enslavements perpetrated in Ireland by the English. In the entire history of the United States, the Americans haven't yet committed a fraction of the murders and dislocations carried out by the so-called British Empire over the course of three centuries--in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, the Americas, Africa, India and China.

But it is a tu quoque fallacy, because no matter what someone else has done, the English are still guilty of enormous crimes. But you can't deal with that, instead you point the finger and shout "oh yeah, look what you guys did!" You are illogical, rhetorically fallacious, and a knee-jerk, vicious patriot who goes off at any hint of criticism of the English.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 06:03 am
@msolga,
Well exactly, but I wasn't the one who brought up perfidious Albion.

Did you read my post about the arms trade. Don't you think it's a bit much the way Bahrain has been treated with kid gloves by the West, in contrast to Libya, Syria and the Yemen. Do you think it might have something to do with the American Naval base squatting there? Perhaps the fact that the majority population are Shia, and have to look to Iran when being oppressed by their ruling Sunni masters, aided and abetted by the Saudis, may feature too.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 06:15 am
@Setanta,
We are dealing with it, and coming to terms with it. It's a bit much when that's all you lot want to do. You ignore Americas crimes completely, but never stop going on about our, mostly historical crimes.

If you're so concerned about a United Ireland, what about a United Cuba? They didn't ask to have a hostile nation drop a great big torture camp on their soveriegn territory.

The only time our politicians have been involved in dubious affairs of late is when they involve themselves with you Americans. The illegal war in Iraq, the use of torture, extraordinary rendition and so on. These are all very recent crimes that you perpetrated, and we got our hands dirty because we should have stood up to you.

I very much doubt that America's war crimes are a fraction of our historical crimes. If you look at your support for south American dictators, the extermination of native Americans as well as what went on in Vietnam and Laos, you're catching up very quickly.

When JTT points out what you're doing in the here and now, you throw all sorts of insults back. You're the ones who can't deal with the crimes you're committing right now. The drones are a clear example of that.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 06:24 am
@izzythepush,
izzy, I know all about the arms trade.
And I agree with you.
I know where you stand on the issues you've mentioned.
But I don't think that is the intended subject of this thread.

What I'd really like to know is where US Democrats/liberals here stand on the escalation of the drone attacks.
And their reasons for whatever positions they might hold.
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 06:43 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

izzy, I know all about the arms trade.
And I agree with you.
I know where you stand on the issues you've mentioned.
But I don't think that is the intended subject of this thread.

What I'd really like to know is where US Democrats/liberals here stand on the escalation of the drone attacks.
And their reasons for whatever positions they might hold.



Obama is leading the charge so they will back the drone attacks 100% fore he can do no evil and is hope incarnate. Were Bush doing it, the same people would be howling mad and we'd never hear the end of it. So, it's not really about the drone attacks, it's about who is making them happen.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 06:45 am
@McGentrix,
Sure, Bubba . . . whatever you say . . .
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 06:49 am
@McGentrix,
We probably define Liberal differently, but my read of the first two pages of this thread is that people I define as American liberals are in disagreement with each other - several are fine with the murders occurring in Obama's name, others think it's bad.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 07:07 am
@gungasnake,
You do realize that US dependence on foreign energy has gone down?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/image/on_screen_gas_bar_blog.jpg
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 07:13 am
@DrewDad,
Sorry, butI'm still working on my morning coffee but how does US oil consumption relate to this topic?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 07:31 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
After 9/11 there was a lot of talk about how the men behind the attack were cowards.
I remember that. I deemed it mindless emotional bloviation.
Not EVERY American is a super-genius.

As I understand the concept, a coward is a man whose fear
deflects him from his duty. The Moslems showed no fear,
so far as I know, and thay sacrificed their human lives for their beliefs.
I challenged & disputed those claims, at the time; (I have a mouth on me).



izzythepush wrote:
How much more so is that with drones?
I remain skeptical of the logical merit
of the notion that when we defend ourselves,
we MUST expose ourselves to danger.


izzythepush wrote:
At least the hijackers sacrificed themselves.
That was sweet of them; saved us some trouble.




izzythepush wrote:
There are plenty of stories about how innocent civilians have been targetted by drone attacks,
and they give the impression that this is a remote controlled 'war' carried out by technocrats scared of getting their hands dirty.
Kinda like sniping; yes ?
That 's an old, tried n true tradition.
Do the English snipe ?


izzythepush wrote:
It's not so easy to tell the difference, from the air, between terrorist groups and innocent civilians.
They act as a recruiting sergeant far more effectively than any amount of Al Qaida videos.
OK; I see your objections qua innocent civilians,
tho historically ( n almost for sure, pre-historically) all humen have lived in predatory environments.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 07:41 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Snipers are in the battlefield, not thousands of miles away, but I see your point.

I'm concerned primarily that it is counter productive, more angry young men with too much time on their hands are inspired to join Al Qaida.

Quote:
(I have a mouth on me).


I'd never have guessed.

At the end of the day, the greatest weapon against terrorism is full employment.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2012 07:55 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
In the entire history of the United States, the Americans haven't yet committed a fraction of the murders and dislocations carried out by the so-called British Empire over the course of three centuries--in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, the Americas, Africa, India and China.


And how many murders, dislocations, rapes, lootings, tortures and enslavements would have taken place in those regions had the British Empire not brought some semblance of order.

Once again, the dick-head fallacy, Setanta compares things that have happened with some vacant space where all is sweetness and light. He would have nothing left to say if he addressed that fallacy and that is the precise reason he has references to it on Ignore. He fears having nothing left to say.

And, in the end, the US attempt to democratise the world might save a lot more lives than it costs. It's a quandry for politicians but not for good old Mr Stupid.

How many lives did Suez cost when the final reckoning takes place? All this **** started when our weakness was perceived. With no end in sight and possibly to get far worse.

Setanta has never bothered reading Gibbon. That's as plain as the nose on his face. I suspect he has Irish ancestry. A cool, calm historical sensibility is one thing he hasn't yet matured to.
 

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