25
   

The distinction between war and murder becomes a fine one...

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 12:07 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Certainly it is easier for you to just allege that my response is emotional than it is to face the indisputable fact that the Bush administration orchestarted a rush to war based on alleged intelligence which they knew to be false.
I was only pointing out your unfounded implication that a president of the U.S.
cannot Constitutionally wage war without a Congressional declaration.
If I have misunderstood u, then please indicate how.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 12:19 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

I believe this small article supports and amplifies on your point about Presidential constitutional war powers:

Article by Michael Boldin

"In reading the Constitution, we can plainly see that Congress possesses the power regulate commerce with foreign nations, to raise and support armies, to grant letters of marque and reprisal, to provide for the common defense, and even declare war. Congress shares, with the President, the power to make treaties and to appoint ambassadors. As for the Executive, the President is assigned only two powers relating to foreign affairs; commander-in-chief of the armed forces, and the power to receive ambassadors.

The United States Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land in our country, delegates the power to declare war to the Congress and the power to wage war to the President. What that means is that only the Congress, as representatives of the People and of the States, can determine whether or not the nation goes to war. If the People, through Congress, decide that the nation shall go to war, the President then, and only then, has the authority to wage it."
This may be Mr. Bolden's personal preference,
but he has pointed out nothing in the Constitution in support thereof.
The Constitutional facts r very simple.
1. Congress has the power to DECLARE war.
2. The President does NOT NEED any Congressional declarations to fight a war.

HOWEVER, it is most conspicuous that Congress can STOP a war,
if so it chooses. It need simply not fund the war.





David
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 12:50 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Has Congress ever not funded a war declared by a President or by itself.

The Constitution, it seems to me, is protecting against a mad President. It is hardly likely that a body of 535 worthy citizens, sufficiently endowed with natural superiority to get elected by the most sophisticated electorate ever known, could collectively go mad.

Isn't the whole point of the Constitution to prevent any kings arising? Despotic kings are notoriously bad business for the legal profession.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 01:14 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

It is hardly likely that a body of 535 worthy citizens, sufficiently endowed with natural superiority to get elected by the most sophisticated electorate ever known, could collectively go mad.



You have a very dry sense of humor.
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 01:23 pm
@roger,
More than half of the House is as about as crazy as box of bessiebugs right now.

Joe(maybe crazier)Nation
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 06:04 pm
@boomerang,
To go back to the opening post of this thread, if that's ok:
"The distinction between war and murder becomes a fine one..."
(thanks for starting this thread, boomerang, it poses some important ethical questions about warfare.)

Quoting Tom Junod's article:
Quote:
...Sure, we as a nation have always killed people. A lot of people. But no president has ever waged war by killing enemies one by one, targeting them individually for execution, wherever they are. The Obama administration has taken pains to tell us, over and over again, that they are careful, scrupulous of our laws, and determined to avoid the loss of collateral, innocent lives. They're careful because when it comes to waging war on individuals, the distinction between war and murder becomes a fine one. Especially when, on occasion, the individuals we target are Americans and when, in one instance, the collateral damage was an American boy.

The Lethal Presidency of Barack Obama:
http://www.esquire.com/features/obama-lethal-presidency-0812

Quote:
... I would rather a hundred radicals and their families be vaporized than a single US soldier step foot on foreign soil.

The only reason we have heard about one of the casualties, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, is because he is an American citizen. (a 16 year old who had not seen his father - the presumed target?- for two years.
But the point is, most of the people killed by the drone attacks weren't "radicals", Joe. Most were civilians. Some of the poorest people in the world. Certainly there were/are people living amongst them, in the tribal areas of Pakistan & Yemen, who you could consider radicals "plotting against the US". Though maybe they have been radicalized because of the drone attacks?

Quote:
..Pakistan’s tribal area has been home to the most sustained drone campaign of anywhere in the world. The attacks started in 2004 and have been stepped up under President Obama. The main defence of drone war is that it results in less “collateral damage” than airstrikes – another impersonal euphemism, this time for civilian deaths. But investigations and anecdotal evidence show that this is not the case. Collating exact figures is difficult, but local activists say that of around 3,000 casualties in Waziristan, just 185 were named al-Qaeda operatives. The Brookings Institution estimates that ten civilians die for every militant killed.

“The problem we have with Obama is this notion that if they have a beard and they are the right age then they are presumed to be terrorists,” says Clive Stafford Smith, head of the legal aid charity Reprieve. “I would estimate that the majority of people being killed are not the people who should be killed under anyone's definition.”

Drones and the "bugsplats" they cause:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/06/drones-pakistan-bugsplats-death

To me, the question is not whether the US has the constitutional right to wage war against individuals perceived as enemies, who are living in these tribal areas, it is the morality of using such imperfect weapons (drones) which "accidentally" kill so many innocent civilians. My question is: does the elimination of the perceived enemies of the US justify the deaths of so many innocent people? To me the human rights of those people is a far more important consideration. How much, if any, "collateral damage" (horrible term) is acceptable to those of you who support the drone attacks?

.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 06:08 pm
@spendius,
So, were you bombed in your childhood, spendi, or are you younger?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 06:14 pm
@Setanta,
My only question is that I would say you were correct that the average man on the street had an opinion of the Japanese, as you explained; however, wouldn't our military officers have learned of the Japanese success against the Russians in the late 19th century? Shouldn't our military have had a more discerned view?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 06:17 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?



Quite necessary when the Japanese were ready to fight to the last person. We saved American lives and Japanese lives. We also prevented Americans in the European Theater from being sent to the Pacific Theater for eventual storming of the Japanese Islands. Now that showed a concern for the families back home too. Sorry, if military decisions showed concern for Americans, and not just Brits.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 06:21 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
More than half of the House is as about as crazy as box of bessiebugs right now.

Joe(maybe crazier)Nation
Undoubtedly, he is referring to the left-leaning members.





David
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 06:27 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

Yet we allowed the tragedy to continue until both sides fell over from the exhaustion of the struggle and the Six Counties are still not free to be Irish.



However, from the perception of Britain, the six counties are free to be Scotch Presbyterian. Also one of the swords in the opening of Parliament rituals has some insignia on the sword that represents England, Scotland, and Ireland. It does not show Wales, since Wales is a principality, according to the PBS documentary about the Monarchy.

So, since the Scotch are Celts, but not Catholic Celts, it can be argued possibly that all of Ireland is Celtish.

Would the 800 year oppression of Ireland, under English rule, have anything to do with Catholicism versus Anglicanism?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 06:29 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Quite necessary when the Japanese were ready to fight to the last person. We saved American lives and Japanese lives. ....


Quote:
When General Dwight D. Eisenhower, then the Supreme Allied Commander, was informed by the Secretary of War that the atomic bomb was going to be used, he later recalled saying it was unnecessary because Japan was already largely defeated. Eisenhower said the bomb was "no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives." At one point after the war he said bluntly, "It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

http://teacher.scholastic.com/scholasticnews/indepth/upfront/debate/index.asp?article=0514
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 06:32 pm
@Foofie,
spendius wrote:

What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Foofie wrote:
Quite necessary when the Japanese were ready to fight to the last person. We saved American lives and Japanese lives. We also prevented Americans in the European Theater from being sent to the Pacific Theater for eventual storming of the Japanese Islands. Now that showed a concern for the families back home too. Sorry, if military decisions showed concern for Americans, and not just Brits.
A few years ago, I was very proud to have taken the hand of Major Dutch Van Kirk,
the Navigator of the Enola Gay, the B-29 that nuked Hiroshima.

I thanked him most profusely for his service to America.

I pointed out to him that millions of Americans r alive now
because of his efforts. Their fathers or grandfathers 'd have been killed
storming the beaches of Japan. He is a very fine American.





David
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 06:44 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
Quite necessary when the Japanese were ready to fight to the last person. We saved American lives and Japanese lives. ....


Quote:
When General Dwight D. Eisenhower, then the Supreme Allied Commander, was informed by the Secretary of War that the atomic bomb was going to be used, he later recalled saying it was unnecessary because Japan was already largely defeated. Eisenhower said the bomb was "no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives." At one point after the war he said bluntly, "It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

http://teacher.scholastic.com/scholasticnews/indepth/upfront/debate/index.asp?article=0514


I do not doubt he said it; however, he did not make the decision. Also, Russia had joined our effort against the Japanese. In my opinion, Russia would have wanted territory from the Japanese, if Russia had spent any time in that theater of operations, since she was humiliated less than half a century earlier by the Japanese. By dropping the bomb, we maintained the territorial integrity of Japan.

And, could an argument be made for dropping the bomb, so we showed Germany that we did not single them out for inhumane efforts, based on the fire bombing of Dresden? Plus, once the US had the bomb, and it was used, we in effect ended the thousand year cycle of warring nations in Europe. Everyone decided to play nice, so to speak. It took nuclear weapons to get the French and Germans to smile at each other, even if it was a perfunctory smile, in my opinion.

Once the genie (aka, nuclear weapons) was out of the bottle (aka, perfected), it might have been of value to show the world that it should not be considered the Gatling gun of the 20th century. The story has a happy ending. The Japanese try hard to be like westerners. They are even friendly to South Koreans, once a country they occupied. Would this have happened without the experience of Nagasaki and Hiroshima?
msolga
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 07:03 pm
@Foofie,
To my way of thinking, Foofie, there was no justification - whatever the perceived gains argued - for bombing Japanese civilians.
I feel much the same about the drone attacks now.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 07:16 pm
@msolga,
But then, we probably would see eye-to eye on this, either:

Quote:
The Pentagon is considering awarding a Distinguished Warfare Medal to drone pilots who work on military bases often far removed from the battlefield. . . .

Army Institute of Heraldry chief Charles] Mugno said most combat decorations require “boots on the ground” in a combat zone, but he noted that “emerging technologies” such as drones and cyber combat missions are now handled by troops far removed from combat.

The Pentagon has not formally endorsed the medal, but Mugno’s institute has completed six alternate designs for commission approval. . . .

The proposed medal would rank between the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Soldier’s Medal for exceptional conduct outside a combat zone.


So medals would be awarded for sitting safely ensconced in a bunker on U.S. soil and launching bombs with a video joystick at human beings thousands of miles away. Justifying drone warfare requires pretending that the act entails some sort of bravery, so the U.S. military is increasingly taking steps to create the facade of warrior courage for drone pilots:

The Air Force has been working to bridge the divide between these two groups of fliers. First off, drone operators are called pilots, and they wear the same green flight suits as fighter pilots, even though they never get in a plane. Their operating stations look like dashboards in a cockpit.


Bravery and drone pilots:
http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/

.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 07:21 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

To my way of thinking, Foofie, there was no justification - whatever the perceived gains argued - for bombing Japanese civilians.
I feel much the same about the drone attacks now.
It 'd have been "aid and comfort to the enemy" i.e., treason
to have benefited the welfare of the Japs b4 thay surrendered.





David
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 07:23 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
It depends on who you define as "the enemy", David.
We both have quite different definitions, I'm certain.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2012 02:23 am
The first article is a polemical screed. The author spends an inordinate amount of time setting up a description of Mr. Obama as an honorable and moral man, just so he can knock it down again. This is an author with an ax to grind. The style is turgid with is intermitten apostrophizing of Mr. Obama. It is also tendentious, in a misleading way. So, for example, at the bottom of page two of the first article, he writes: "The difference between shedding the blood of many for a cause outside yourself and shedding the blood of one for a cause of your own seems ineffable — and yet it's nothing less than the difference between war and murder." Wait, when did targeted killings of alleged terrorists cease to be a cause outside Mr. Obama and become a cause of his own? Does the author allege that Mr. Obama is selecting targets based on a persoal animus, and then employing the military resources of the united states to carry out a vendetta? Not only is the proposition absurd, but the author drops it out there without a shred of proof. This is a heavily polemical piece of writing which employs logical fallacy to indict Mr. Obama, for, it seems to me, having failed to live up to the author's expectations, and not for acting outside the boundaries of international practice in time of war. The author seems to be saying that Mr. Obama enacted some personal vengeance against Anwar al-Awlaki.

By the definition supplied by the author, this is not murder unless and until the author shows that Mr. Obama enacted personal revenge. The author has not shown this to be the case. By hammering on the expression "lethal presidency," the author just makes this a polemical screed. I really don't see any point in reading the succeeding articles as the tone of this one is that of someone enraged that Mr. Obama has not lived up to his (the author's) moral expectations. He certainly has not made the case about a distinction between war and murder judging by the standard he articulates himself.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2012 04:14 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Yet we allowed the tragedy to continue until both sides fell over from the exhaustion of the struggle and the Six Counties are still not free to be Irish.


There's a lot of people living in Ulster who don't want to be Irish. What do you suggest doing with them?

What the British government did in Ireland was terrible, but it really doesn't come close to what your lot did in Vietnam.
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 12/23/2024 at 03:32:10