10
   

Are there are no heroes in our world?

 
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jul, 2012 04:03 pm
Of course there are at least two kinds of "heros", culture heros like Hercules and other mythical characters--even Batman and Captain America, who serve as models for children--and actual putative heros like Pat Tilman who receives the label of hero from many but not all others.
Rorschach
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jul, 2012 04:10 pm
@parados,
In my eyes, your definition is flawed.
My belief is the simplest explanation, with the fewest assumption.

Yours require looking at the raio of good deeds and evil deeds, and considering what deeds subjectively require more attention than others, and so on, and so on.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jul, 2012 04:17 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
and actual putative heros[sic] like Pat Tilman[sic] who receives the label of hero from many but not all others.


How do people who volunteer to aid the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation become a hero in anyone's eyes? Though it must be noted that it seems that Tillman had begun to seriously doubt the bullshit he obviously received in the appropriately named, Ranger Indoctrination Program

Why would anyone want to sully his memory, JL, by associating him in any fashion with the US military and its grotesque and relentless lying.

Quote:
Tillman was subsequently redeployed to Afghanistan. On April 22, 2004, he was killed by friendly fire. An Afghan Militia Forces Allied soldier was also killed in the action. Tillman’s Platoon Leader First Lieutenant David Uthlaut and his RadioTelephone Operator, then 19-year old Jade Lane, were wounded in the incident. The specific details of his death and its aftermath were investigated by the US Congress.

The Army initially claimed that Tillman and his unit were attacked in an apparent ambush on a road outside of the village of Sperah about 25 miles (40 km) southwest of Khost, near the Pakistan border. An Afghan militia soldier was killed, and two other Rangers were injured as well.

The Army Special Operations Command initially claimed that there was an exchange with hostile forces. After a lengthy investigation conducted by Brigadier General Gary M. Jones, the U.S. Department of Defense concluded that both the Afghan militia soldier's and Pat Tillman's deaths were due to friendly fire aggravated by the intensity of the firefight.

An investigation by the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command concluded that Tillman and the Afghan militia soldier were killed by friendly fire when one allied group fired upon another in confusion after nearby gunfire was mistakenly believed to be from enemy combatants. The CID Report summary, dated 19 March 2007, stated that: "during their movement through the canyon road, Serial 2 [Tillman's platoon had to split up because of a broken Humvee; the parts were called Serial 1 and 2] was ambushed and became engaged in a running gun battle with enemy combatants. Serial 1 [Tillman's portion of the platoon] had just passed through the same canyon without incident and were approximately one kilometer ahead of Serial 2. Upon hearing explosions, gunfire, and sporadic radio communication from Serial 2, Serial 1 dismounted their vehicles and moved on foot, to a more advantageous position to provide overwatch and fire support for Serial 2's movement out of the ambush." Upon exiting the gorge, and despite attempts by Serial 1 to signal a "friendly position," occupants of the lead vehicle of Serial 2 opened fire on Tillman's position, where he was fatally shot.[11]

Cover-up surrounding Tillman's death


Misleading tribute to CPL. Tillman at the National Infantry Museum. The plaque inaccurately says he was killed in an enemy ambush.
A report described in The Washington Post on May 4, 2005, prepared at the request of Tillman's family by Brigadier General Gary M. Jones revealed that in the days immediately following Tillman's death, Army investigators were aware that Tillman had been killed by friendly fire, shot three times in the head.[12] Jones reported that senior Army commanders, including General John Abizaid, knew of this fact within days of the shooting but nevertheless approved the awarding of the Silver Star, Purple Heart, and a posthumous promotion to the rank of Corporal.[13]

Lieutenant General Stanley McChrystal approved the Silver Star citation on April 28, 2004, which gave a detailed account of Tillman's death including the phrase "in the line of devastating enemy fire," but the next day he sent a P4 confidential memo warning senior government members that Tillman might actually have been killed by friendly fire.[14] Top commanders within the US Central Command, including former Commander of the United States Central Command (CENTCOM) General John Abizaid, should have been notified by the P4 memo,[15] which described Tillman's "highly possible" fratricide, four days before Tillman's nationally televised memorial service during which he was lauded as a war hero for dying while engaging the enemy.[16][17]

Jones reported that members of Tillman's unit burned his body armor and uniform in an apparent attempt to hide the fact that he was killed by friendly fire.[18] His notebook, in which – according to author Jon Krakauer – Tillman had recorded some of his thoughts on Afghanistan, was also burned; "a blatant violation of protocol".[19] Several soldiers were subsequently punished for their actions by being removed from the United States Army Rangers. Jones believed that Tillman should retain his medals and promotion, since, according to Jones, he intended to engage the enemy and behaved heroically.[18]

Tillman's family was not informed of the finding that he was killed by friendly fire until weeks after his memorial service, although at least some senior Army officers knew of that fact prior to the service.[18] According to Krakauer in his book Where Men Win Glory, the extensive cover-up that followed his death included the military's order to Tillman's comrades to lie to his family at the funeral.[19] Tillman's parents have sharply criticized the Army's handling of the incident; Tillman's father charges that the Army "purposely interfered in the investigation" because of the effect it could have on their recruiting efforts, while Tillman's mother charges that "this lie was to cover their image."[20]

After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this. They purposely interfered with the investigation; they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy.[20]
He also blamed high-ranking Army officers for presenting "outright lies" to the family and to the public.[21]

On March 4, 2006, the US Defense Department Inspector General directed the Army to open a criminal investigation of Tillman's death. The Army's Criminal Investigative Division will determine if Tillman's death was the result of negligent homicide.[22]

On March 26, 2007, the Pentagon released their report on the events surrounding Tillman's death and coverup. The report reads in part:

...we emphasize that all investigators established the basic facts of CPL Tillman's death – that it was caused by friendly fire, that the occupants of one vehicle in CPL Tillman's platoon were responsible, and that circumstances on the ground caused those occupants to misidentify friendly forces as hostile. None of the investigations suggested that CPL Tillman's death was anything other than accidental. Our review, as well as the investigation recently completed by Army CID, obtained no evidence contrary to those key findings.[23]
On April 24, 2007, Iraq veteran Jessica Lynch, who had been captured by the Iraqis after a fire fight, gave testimony before the United States House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform that the Pentagon had erroneously portrayed her as a "Rambo from the hills of West Virginia," when in fact, she never fired a shot after her truck was ambushed.[24] Tillman's brother Kevin Tillman testified at the same hearing that: "The deception surrounding this [Tillman] case was an insult to the family: but more importantly, its primary purpose was to deceive a whole nation. We say these things with disappointment and sadness for our country. Once again, we have been used as props in a Pentagon public relations exercise."[25]

After Kevin's testimony Pete Geren, acting secretary of the Army stated to reporters, "We as an Army failed in our duty to the Tillman family, the duty we owe to all the families of our fallen soldiers: Give them the truth, the best we know it, as fast as we can."[25]

Tillman's diary was never returned to his family, and its whereabouts are not publicly known.[26]

One investigation of the autopsy report and photographs by two forensic pathologists in November 2006, concluded that Tillman was most likely killed as a result of fire from a M249 light machine gun. The M249 uses the same ammunition as the M16 rifle and M4 carbine but is capable of greater accuracy during higher rates of fire. This would allow a competent user to place three bullets within a several-inch target from forty or fifty yards away more easily, even from a moving vehicle.[3]

On July 26, 2007, Chris Matthews reported on Hardball that Tillman's death may have been a case of deliberate murder by Tillman's fellow soldiers – specifically that the bullet holes were tight and neat, suggesting a shot at close range. Matthews based his speculation on a report from the doctors who examined Tillman's body. The following day the Associated Press reported that a doctor who examined Tillman's body after his death wrote, "The medical evidence did not match up with the scenario as described,"[27] also noting that the wound entrances appeared as though he had been shot with an M16 rifle from fewer than 10 yards (9 m) away. A possible motive was not identified. When officers and soldiers were asked during a criminal investigation, they said they were certain the shooting was accidental. According to one of his fellow soldiers, Tillman "was popular among his fellow soldiers and had no enemies."[27][28]

In addition, in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the Associated Press, the Defense Department released 2,300 pages of documents which were reported to indicate:[27]

There has never been evidence of enemy fire found on the scene, and no members of Tillman's group had been hit by enemy fire.
The three-star general, who withheld details of Tillman's death from his parents for a number of months, told investigators approximately 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.
Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.
Army doctors told the investigators that Tillman's wounds suggested murder because "the medical evidence did not match-up with the scenario as described."[29]
There were special forces snipers in the group immediately behind Tillman's platoon.[29]
Despite his fame, Tillman did not want to be used for propaganda purposes. He spoke to friends about his opposition to President Bush and the Iraq war, and he had made an appointment with notable government critic Noam Chomsky after his return from the military. The destruction of evidence linked to Tillman's death, including his personal journal, led his mother to speculate that he was murdered.[30] General Wesley Clark agreed that it was "very possible".[31][32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman



0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jul, 2012 04:44 pm
@Rorschach,
Quote:
Yours require looking at the raio of good deeds and evil deeds, and considering what deeds subjectively require more attention than others, and so on, and so on.

Not at all.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jul, 2012 05:50 pm
@Rorschach,
Quote:
I believe that heroes don't exist in real life.


But they do...
Heroism is simply selfless and honorable action. There are many people in the world who would chose the selfless and honorable action over the selfish and profitable one. The only problem is that in this deluded world we live in, selfish and profitable are seen as high ideals to strive for...
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jul, 2012 06:22 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Regardless, just giving a litany of what America did that was not in JTT's liking is not the best way to teach


"was not in JTT's liking"!!??

Are you inferring that all the war crimes, all the carnage, all the terrorism that the USA has committed is in anyone's liking, Foofie?

You have shown that it is in your liking.


I am inferring nothing. I am saying that the US international political history is not in your liking, based on your many tirades against the US international political history.

And, I have not shown that it is in my liking, since I just don't give a flying fruck. You stand in judgement of the US, I do not.

But, you have not explained how exemplary Canada is, as compared to the US, since Canada does schlep along with Mother England for one reason or another.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jul, 2012 11:18 pm
@Cyracuz,
"Hero" is a value category. I do agree that a when a person performs selfless and honorable actions s/he is behaving heroically.
space007
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jul, 2012 11:35 pm
@Rorschach,
While , I think the heroes are also common people, they have their own daily life like you and me, if they always heroes, I would rather regard them as gods.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 01:47 am
Anyone who in order to make a point or convey a personnel belief chooses to portray a puppet in detriment of the real thing is a either a clown or someone in a serious delusional state of mind...there is no much more that can be said to keep on entertaining the subject. Heroes are just normal everyday people who at some point in time are capable of extraordinary deeds in extraordinarily demanding circumstances...even evolution of social species provides a scientific explanation on why such individuals are necessary...whether some moron chooses or opts to believe that this is not a good enough definition only because it fits better his cosmogony only proves how narrow shallow and hollow is perception is not to mention an intrinsic unavailability to evolve a continuously comprehensive model of reality...its called thickness for a reason...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 04:20 am
@JLNobody,
Yes. But it doesn't allow us to easily determine what is a heroic action. The people who hijacked the planes and flew them into the world trade center are considered terrorists. By us.
By those who sent them they are considered heroes. Their actions were selfless, I don't think we can argue against that. But I do think we can say that their actions were not honorable. But then again, someone who thinks it is honorable to kill thousands of infidels probably disagrees with me. Values.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 05:38 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
But, you have not explained how exemplary Canada is, as compared to the US,


Canada, Australia, bit players - that`s like comparing a petty thief to John Gotti or Al Capone. The US is the head honcho in terms of ongoing, war crimes and terrorism. The US, despite all its hypocritical nonsense, is a plague to other countries and peoples that has been going since its inception.


Quote:
I am saying that the US international political history ...


Another silly euphemism, Foofie. US international war crimeséterrorism.

Quote:
You stand in judgement of the US, I do not.


The facts, which you ignore, judge the US. And it`s all damning. The US has been a rogue nation for the vast majority of its history.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 05:46 am
@JTT,
The US is a symptom, not the problem itself. It didn't even start there, though it has reached new levels of insanity over there first. The problem, of course, is greed, and the system that rewards greed and selfishness; capitalism. Even that wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact that this system also punishes those who wish to act morally and selflessly.
We are forced to cheat each other, to lie and mislead each other. If you sell chairs, and you know of a shop next door that sells better chairs than you do, for a cheaper price, the right thing to do would be to tell your customers about it. But then you would be out of business. So if you want to keep your head above the water surface, you have to lie and cheat.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 06:04 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
The US is a symptom, not the problem itself. It didn't even start there, though it has reached new levels of insanity over there first.


That`s like saying that criminals have always existed, so we oughta give the current one a pass. That didn`t wash for Germany, Japan, or Italy. War criminals are war criminals. That never goes away. The war crimes that have been committed by all the presidents since Eisenhower will forever be war crimes.

The US is oh so good at ferreting out the little guy war criminals from WWII and moralizing and pontificating about what a noble nation it is, but they ignore all the war criminals they have within their own system, they ignore all the war criminals that they support, have supported over the years.
Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 07:32 am
@JTT,
My problem is that while I agree to some extent that the USA is a fascist state that masquerades as a democracy, most USA citizens I meet and talk to are good people. In the case of USA, a few rich assholes have got the rest of them by the balls. It's overly simplistic to blame a nation for the problems that a shady elite are causing. But I do think that if the assholes that rape the world are using the USA as their personal piggybank, it is the responsibility of the people of that nation to do something about it. But alas! They have been mislead and put to sleep, and now they are waking up to find that everything is a mess...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 08:23 am
Most Democracy's in the western world are oligarchies run by mega corporations which is quite natural, after all concentration is the name of the game, just like in nature it always was, big deal...the main difference only being that some nations have more power then others, and of course those are the usual "bad" guys on the spotlight...Naturally revolution is the eternal recurring cure for the narrow-minded...the perpetual cycling problem is that as soon as revolution ends it all goes back to business as usual no matter who gets to top first, starting with the revolutionary's ...

...the solely small issue with democracy is that nobody is interested in it after getting rich or having power, specially poor people, the rule being, that all political power can be democratic as long it has no true power...most people are damn funny talking on these and similar subjects, others are just damn stupid...
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 11:03 am
@Cyracuz,
There really is no such thing as a war crime. War itself is the crime.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 11:09 am
@Lustig Andrei,
...would you sustain that claim if instead you used the term conflict ?
...wouldn't you rather consider conflict inevitable at some point...I mean even galaxy's "conflict" time to time...systems clash.
What is it a crime ? a legitimate point of view ? anything else ?
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 11:15 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I'm not using the words "war" and "conflict" as synonims. A conflict can be a verbal disagreement. Sometimes it can even be a tacit, unspoken disagreement. War is always an armed confrontation, invariably preventable by the application of just a modicum of compromise and common sense.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 11:20 am
@Lustig Andrei,
...well that is your claim...being a determinist I rather think war is preventable when war is preventable...certainly seems fair to assume that at large wars or better conflicts are not preventable but rather natural events...major or lesser orders of conflict are just magnitude and magnitude variance also seems quite natural to me...
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 11:35 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
There really is no such thing as a war crime. War itself is the crime.


That's a lame excuse to try to explain away US war crimes, Merry. That's as ludicrous as saying there are no crimes, doing something bad is the crimes itself.

=============
Human Rights Report Confirms Bush Guilty of War Crimes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr5hB8ovsBo

The Massachusetts-based Physicians for Human Rights reached that conclusion after two-day clinical evaluations of 11 former detainees, who had been held at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in Afghanistan.

The detainees were never charged with crimes.

"We found clear physical and psychological evidence of torture and abuse, often causing lasting suffering," said Dr. Allen Keller, a medical evaluator for the study.

In a 121-page report, the doctors' group said that it uncovered medical evidence of torture, including beatings, electric shock, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, sodomy and scores of other abuses.

The report is prefaced by retired U.S. Major Gen. Antonio Taguba, who led the Army's investigation into the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal in 2003.
"There is no longer any doubt that the current administration committed war crimes," Taguba says. "The only question is whether those who ordered torture will be held to account."

Over the years, reports of abuses at Abu Ghraib and allegations of torture at Guantanamo prompted the Bush administration to deny that the U.S. military tortures detainees.

Since only 11 detainees were examined "the findings of this assessment cannot be generalized to the treatment of all detainees in U.S. custody," the report says.

However, the incidents documented are consistent with findings of other investigations into government treatment, "making it reasonable to conclude that these detainees were not the only ones abused, but are representative of a much larger number of detainees subjected to torture and ill treatment while in U.S. custody."

Four of the men evaluated were arrested in or taken to Afghanistan between late 2001 and early 2003 and later were sent to Guantanamo Bay, where they were held for an average of three years before being released without charge, the report says. The other seven were detained in Iraq in 2003 and released within a year, the report says.

All the subjects told examiners that they were subjected to multiple forms of torture or ill treatment that "often occurred in combination over a long period of time," the report says.

Among the ex-detainees was an Iraqi in his mid-40s, identified only as Laith, whom U.S. soldiers took into custody in October 2003 and who was released from Abu Ghraib in June 2004. According to the report, Laith was subjected to sleep deprivation, electric shocks and threats of sexual abuse to himself and his family.

"They took off even my underwear. They asked me to do some movements that make me look in a very bad way so they can take photographs. ... They were trying to make me look like an animal," Laith told examiners, according to the report.

According to the report, Laith said the most "painful" experiences involved threats to his family: "And they asked me, 'Have you ever heard voices of women in this prison?' I answered, 'Yes.' They were saying, 'Then you will hear your mothers and sisters when we are raping them.' "

The examiners concluded in the report that "Laith appears to have suffered severe and lasting physical and psychological injuries as a result of his arrest and incarceration at Abu Ghraib prison."

Another detainee, Youssef, was detained by U.S. soldiers nearly seven years ago when he tried to enter Afghanistan from neighboring Pakistan without a passport, the report says. He initially was held in an Afghan prison, where he describes "being stripped naked, being intimidated by dogs, being hooded and being thrown against the wall on repeated occasions," the report says.

A few months later, he was taken to the Guantanamo Bay facility, where he was subjected to interrogators who would enter his cell and force him to lie on the floor with his hands tied behind his back to his feet, the report says.

Youssef said the interrogators wanted him to confess of involvement with the Taliban, the report says.

Based on its investigation, the report calls on the U.S. government to issue a formal apology to detainees subject to torture and ill treatment by the military since fall 2001 in Afghanistan, Iraq, Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere.

-------------------------------

Former Pres. Bush, VP. Cheney, Rumsfeld Found Guilty Of War Crimes - May 11, 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncp8RELsGUs

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31297.htm War crimes expert and lawyer Francis Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law in America, was part of the prosecution team.

After the case he said: "This is the first conviction of these people anywhere in the world."

While the hearing is regarded by some as being purely symbolic, human rights activist Boyle said he was hopeful that Bush and Co could soon find themselves facing similar trials elsewhere in the world.

"We tried three times to get Bush in Canada but were thwarted by the Canadian Government, then we scared Bush out of going to Switzerland. The Spanish attempt failed because of the government there and the same happened in Germany."

Boyle then referenced the Nuremberg Charter which was used as the format for the tribunal when asked about the credibility of the initiative in Malaysia. He quoted: "Leaders, organizers, instigators and accomplices participating in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy to commit war crimes are responsible for all acts performed by any person in execution of such a plan."

The US is subject to customary international law and to the Principles of the Nuremberg Charter said Boyle who also believes the week-long trial was "almost certainly" being monitored closely by both Pentagon and White House officials.
My compliments to the judges and prosecutors of Kuala Lumpur, defenders of civilization. It's a first step, and it will be taken further by others who value civilization until, finally, the most arrogant destructive criminals in the world are locked up.
I bet this doesn't get put in any main stream papers or the BBC, FOX, MSN or any of the many more Government friendly companies. If I was the leader of that country, I would keep a very close eye on any "Visitors" in the future, because when the president of Indonesia failed to support the American war on terrorism, her country was miraculously hit by "Terrorists" (Oh!"!!! What a coincidence!!!!) In fact it could not have been more obvious in the case of Bali that it was done by the Americans, they even sent an American newsman home after he began asking the wrong questions, they might as well have put it on a notice board, and not forgetting the part played by the Australian government. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbdNZ5NgRLA this will explain all, and it also gives a bit of info on 9/11, well worth a watch.




 

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