Forgiveness and repentance

Portal Star wrote:

Micah - do you believe in hell, and satan?

yes, hell and satan are real...

First you tried to get me to take Paul's word over the word of Jesus...and now you are trying to get me to take YOUR word over the word of Jesus.

Now why should I take your word -- rather than the word of Jesus in this matter?

micah wrote:

Portal Star wrote:

Micah - do you believe in hell, and satan?

yes, hell and satan are real...

You are aware the the Christian "Satan" is a farily recent construct? It probably dates from the later first century CE. Certainly the Jews did not have a similar construct. In the Torah, various angels serve as "Satans" or adversaries. In Job the role of Satan is fulfilled by one of the angel who seems to have a role similar to that of a prosecutor in modern court proceedings. The "devil" really only shows up in modern form in Revelation.
If you have a chance you should read Jefferery Russell. His work is fascinating, and quite readable from the perspective of novice or professional.
Portal, have you looked into the arguments surrounding the representation of the Devil in the Isenheim altarpiece? fascinating stuff.

On the subject of this thread's title, I find the equation of the Magdalen with penitence, and her very popuilar cult in the twelfth century very interesting. Sermons from the era emphasize the need to sin in order to more fully receive proper forgiveness. I have often wondered how much of this was an attempt to allay lay anxiety at the validity of sacraments performed by a cleargy that was seen as openly corrupt.

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i have sent you a pm re: satan (a link)

hobitbob wrote:

On the subject of this thread's title, I find the equation of the Magdalen with penitence, and her very popuilar cult in the twelfth century very interesting. Sermons from the era emphasize the need to sin in order to more fully receive proper forgiveness. I have often wondered how much of this was an attempt to allay lay anxiety at the validity of sacraments performed by a cleargy that was seen as openly corrupt.

no reason to dwell on the past, especially because God says the chruch will grow up much like a person...

micah wrote:

[

i have sent you a pm re: satan (a link)

And I responded. The site you sent was so full of nonsense as to be useless.

micah wrote:

hobitbob wrote:

On the subject of this thread's title, I find the equation of the Magdalen with penitence, and her very popuilar cult in the twelfth century very interesting. Sermons from the era emphasize the need to sin in order to more fully receive proper forgiveness. I have often wondered how much of this was an attempt to allay lay anxiety at the validity of sacraments performed by a cleargy that was seen as openly corrupt.

no reason to dwell on the past, especially because God says the chruch will grow up much like a person...

Willful ignorance of history doesn't make you devout, it just makes you uneducated.

Fair enough, most of us have given up on yours.
BTW, my reply to you as based on research, not belief. There is a difference.

hobitbob wrote:

Fair enough, most of us have given up on yours.
BTW, my reply to you as based on research, not belief. There is a difference.

your reply was based on researching others' opinions.....

If you have a chance you should read Jefferery Russell. His work is fascinating, and quite readable from the perspective of novice or professional.
Portal, have you looked into the arguments surrounding the representation of the Devil in the Isenheim altarpiece? fascinating stuff.

The best one off the top of my head is Ruth Melinkoff's The Devil At Isenheim: Reflections of Popular Belief in Grunewald's Altarpiece, (Berekely :University of California Press, 1988-ish). I think its out of print, but a good university library should have one. I bought mine from Hopkins at their semesterly book sale, they had two othrs. Michael Baxendall has also written on the Isenheim Altarpiece, but then what has he not written on?

Yes, Micah, clearly your arguments are so well presented and logical they have blown everyone away.



Do you really believe there is a demon inside the earth who tortures/roasts dead humans for all eternity? How does he torture them? Do you believe non-christians will go to hell?

The Egyptian heaven was called the happy field of food. Pharos promised the slaves they would go there if they were good.
The Chinese during the T'and dynasty believed that whoever tryly pronounced the name of Amithabha, one of the many Buddhas worshiped, would be reborn in a lapis lazuli paradise with jeweld trees.
The christians believe in a place with resurrected winged humans, and harps. I don't think they have any sex there.
And, we have all heard of the virgins promised to unibombers.
What makes your belifs different from any of these?

What do you think of the holy wars?