Forgiveness and repentance

micah wrote:

i'll be happy to answer all your questions, one at a time...which one would you like answered first?

Until Portal Star comes back I would appreciate it if you would answer this one.

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Do you believe non-christians will go to hell?

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Hmm....I would say that all I have to back up anything I say is the bible - but as that's not enough here, I don't see it worthy of commenting. However, because I believe in the bible, I beieve that those who do not accept J.C. as Lord and Savior and who are unrepentant will go to hell. I have n personal knowledge of this however and I dont know if hell is a place or if it is a state of mind.

I accept the fact the the bible is open to interpretation, and that that alone makes it a 'strange' thing to base the living of ones life on, but in my interpretation of the Bible, it's right for me. It's a FAITH thing - and that, to me, doesn't require explanation.

I generally try to stay away from these conversations because I really don't have a lot of historical knowledge (save the crusades, which I'm really in disagreement with... ) as far as these things go. My faith is what gets me through and I'm not in a position to let anyone try to reason me out of it.

as for forgiveness & repentance, as I said in the very beginning to seeker, I believe repentance & forgiveness go hand in hand. Repent, and you'll be forgiven.

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mesquite wrote:

micah wrote:
i'll be happy to answer all your questions, one at a time...which one would you like answered first?

Until Portal Star comes back I would appreciate it if you would answer this one.
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Do you believe non-christians will go to hell?

well this is what Jesus preaches....however, have you ever seen a side-by-side comparison of a brain scan, one of a murderers brain, and one of a 'normal' persons brain??

they are quite different and scientests are only beginning to understand these differences...for the sake of this discussion, let's refer to these brain 'differences' as 'mental deficiencies'

perhaps God, in his mercy and understanding, will save many that possess these mental deficiencies. for this reason, we should never say anyone is definitely going to hell...

yes, there will be people in hell....apparently even people who thought they were Christians according to scripture....

so you can see why i am unable to answer simply yes or no...the term 'mental deficiencies' can span a wide spectrum of disorders....but i think my response here conveys my thinking well enough..

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micah wrote:

Terry wrote:

"Thou shalt have no gods before me." Jesus put himself before God when he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6).

wow....i'm sorry, but you have a VERY strange view on these things...

Jesus IS God.....

you have only shown that you have ZERO understanding of scripture and ZERO ability to interpret scripture....keep trying...

Micah, you seem to be the only one here with that problem. Laughing

Jesus never claimed to be God. That was an invention of the church.

You conveniently ignored the questions I asked you. Wnat to give them another shot?

What possible definition of sinning does not include breaking the ten commandments??? Jesus violated not one but four of them, and condoned violations of others.

"Thou shalt have no gods before me." Jesus put himself before God when he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6).

"Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy." Jesus and his disciples plucked and ate corn on the sabbath and when confronted about it Jesus said, "The sabbath was made for men and not men for the sabbath" (Mark 2:23-28). They also ate with unwashed hands. (Mark 7:1-4)

"Honor your father and mother." Jesus scorned and publicly humiliated his mother (Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:19-21, Luke 11:27-28, John 2:3-4) Jesus said, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26) I challenge you to find anything that he did or said to honor either his earthly father or his mother, other than turning her over to a disciple on the cross.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness (lie)." Jesus said he wasn't going to the feast and then as soon as the others left, he went to the feast in secret. (John 7:8-10) Jesus promised to return but didn't, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." (Mark 9:1)

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micah wrote:

Terry wrote:
God wants you to rape women and kill babies (as he did several times in the Old Testament)

please show me where God commands or even suggests to anyone to rape women??

What I actually said was: "micah, if one has developed an internal system of ethics, one knows that raping women and killing babies is wrong on humanitarian and social grounds regardless of any laws or divinely ordained rules. But if you have no internal ethics and your priests tell you that God wants you to rape women and kill babies (as he did several times in the Old Testament), what grounds do you have for refusing to do so?"

You seem to already know that God ordered the slaughter of babies:

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They devoted the city [Jericho] to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. (Joshua 6:21)

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Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys (1Sam. 15:3)

But sometimes God allowed soldiers to take virgins as plunder (of course the priests got their share of virgins too!). Now what do you suppose they did with these girls? Twisted Evil

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Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)

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When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. (Deut. 20:13-14)

God never told his soldiers to refrain from raping captives. Although in some instances God allowed them to marry a women who caught their eye, in other places the practice of marrying foreign women is condemned.

Have you read the story of how the Benjamites got wives to preserve their bloodline? First they killed everyone from Jabesh Gilead except for 400 virgins, but there were not enough to go around so they hid in vineyards in Shiloh and seized girls who were dancing in the festival of the Lord.

It's rape even if you marry them.

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Prophecy

micah wrote:

1. The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger

Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:
A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Matthew 3:3 re John the Baptist: "This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: `A voice of one calling in the desert, Prepare the way for the Lord, make paths straight for him.'"

Isaiah 40:3-5: "A voice of one calling: `In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.'"

Nothing in Isaiah 40:3 indicates that it has anything at all to do with John the Baptist. Isaiah says nothing about baptism or Jesus, and John did not level mountains. All mankind has never seen the glory of the Lord.

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2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem

Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod...

Micah 5:1-3 says, "Marshall your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. `But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from old, from ancient times.'"

Micah was clearly not talking about Jesus, who was never the ruler over Israel or even its shepherd. The people of Judah were being oppressed, and he was promising them deliverance, not a centuries-in-the-future savior. Micah 4:9-10 says, "Why do you now cry aloud - have you no king? Has your counselor perished, that pain seizes you like that of a woman in labor, for now you must leave the city to camp in the open field. You will go to Babylon; there you will be rescued. There the Lord will redeem you out of the hand of your enemies."

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Prophecy

micah wrote:

3. The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah

Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) says:
This passage talks about a ruler coming from the Tribe of Judah, one whose rule will be all-powerful:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."
New Testament (Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16):
Here you'll find a list of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel).

Judah was an ancestor of David, so of course any descendent of David is also a descendent of Judah.

Matthew and Luke give very different genealogies for Jesus, from his grandfather to David's sons. (Matthew says Joseph's father was Jacob and traces 27 generations back to Solomon; Luke says Joseph's father was Heli and traces 42 generations back to Nathan. And no, Luke was not talking about Mary's ancestry!)

1 Timothy 1
3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

Titus 3
9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

It seems that inventing genealogies for Jesus was a popular pastime.

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4. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a colt

Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) says:
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
New Testament (Luke 19:35-37) says:
They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen

Zechariah 9:8-13: But I will defend my house against marauding forces. Never again will an oppressor overrun my people, for now I am keeping watch. Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit. Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope; even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you. I will bend Judah as I bend my bow and fill it with Ephraim. I will rouse your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and make you like a warrior's sword.

Other than allegedly riding on a donkey, Jesus certainly did not fulfill that one! Israel was indeed overrun, Jesus was never king of Israel nor did he fight against Greece.

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micah wrote:

5. The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend

Old Testament (Psalms 41:9) says:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
New Testament (Matthew 26:47-50) says:
While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.

Let's look at Psalm 41:4-10 for context: "I [David] said, `O Lord, have mercy on me, for I have sinned against you.' My enemies say of me in malice, `When will he die and his name perish?' Whenever one comes to see me, he speaks falsely, while he heart gathers slander; then he goes out and spreads it abroad.' All my enemies whisper together against me; they imagine the worst for me, saying, `A vile disease has beset him; he will never get up from the place where he lies.' Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. But you, O LORD, have mercy on me; raise me up, that I may repay them."

David is lamenting his own condition, not prophesying a future messiah. If this is a prophecy of Jesus, he must have sinned against the Lord and been stricken with a vile disease.

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6. The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12) says:
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
New Testament (Matthew 26:14-15) says:
Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

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7. The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten

Old Testament (Isaiah 50:6) says:
I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
New Testament (Matthew 26:67-68) says:
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

Isaiah 50
4 The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary. He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being taught. 5 The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears,
and I have not been rebellious; I have not drawn back. 6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting. 7 Because the Sovereign LORD helps me,
I will not be disgraced. Therefore have I set my face like flint, and I know I will not be put to shame. 8 He who vindicates me is near. Who then will bring charges against me? Let us face each other! Who is my accuser? Let him confront me!
9 It is the Sovereign LORD who helps me. Who is he that will condemn me? They will all wear out like a garment; the moths will eat them up.

Lots of people were beaten and spit on. Did anyone pull out Jesus' beard? Did he demand to face his accuser? What makes you think that Isaiah was talking about Jesus and not himself here?

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micah wrote:

8. The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5) says:
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
New Testament (Matthew 27:26) says:
Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

9. The Messiah would be silent before His accusers

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7) says:
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
New Testament (Matthew 27:12-14) says:
When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor.

12. The Messiah would be crucified with thieves

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:12) says:
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
New Testament (Matthew 27:38) says:
Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.

Isaiah 52
The Suffering and Glory of the Servant
13 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. 14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him - his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness - 15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah was talking about a man whose "appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness." Jesus was not stricken by God, smitten, crushed, afflicted or disfigured, had no offspring nor a long life, was not assigned a grave with the wicked, and did not divide the spoils of the strong. Virtually every human being is despised and rejected by someone, depressed on occasion and familiar with suffering. What makes you think that this passage refers to a centuries-in-the-future messiah? In what way was Jesus ever "crushed"?

According to John 18, Jesus was NOT silent before his accusers at all. Do you suppose that John made up the dialog between Jesus and Pilate?

It takes some pretty creative interpretation to believe that "numbered with the transgressors" predicts "crucified with thieves"!

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micah wrote:

10. The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field

Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) says:
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.

Matthew 27:9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

Jeremiah does not actually say this anywhere. The closest we can come is:

Jeremiah 19:1-13 Go and buy a clay jar from a potter, predict doom, and break the jar.

Jeremiah 32:6-9 I knew that this was the word of the Lord, so I bought the field at Anathoth from my cousin Hanamel and weighed out for him seventeen shekels of silver.

BTW, Acts tells a different story entirely regarding Judas and his money:

Acts 1: 18-19 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

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11. The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced

Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:
Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalm 22:12-18 is another psalm of David that says, "Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me (I am laid) in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me, a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced (Septuagint et al: like the lion) my hands and feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."

No bulls, lions, or dogs were mentioned at Jesus' crucifixion. All of his bones were not out of joint, nor was he emaciated enough to count them. David does not in any way suggest that he is talking about anyone other than himself.

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micah wrote:

The prophecy that Jesus would be born into a family from the tribe of Judah is a 12-to-1 shot because there are 12 tribes of Israel. But, as Christian scholar Grant Jeffrey figured out, for all these prophecies to come true in one man's life would be 1 chance in 10 billion times a billion. And, there are many more Bible prophecies about a Messiah that have been fulfilled by Jesus, and we have only listed 12 of those prophecies here.

Well, when your method is to go back through the scriptures several decades after Jesus died, pick out any bits of text that can be made to fit (never mind that many of them were not even prophecies) and ignore everything else, the odds are pretty good. It's not hard to convince most people that Jesus "fulfilled" them when you don't have any eyewitnesses around to contradict your stories and your target audience is not familiar with Jewish scripture.

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Terry wrote:

Jesus never claimed to be God.

i really can't get past this....the fact that Jesus is God (research: trinity) is central to Christianity....if Jesus is not God, Christianity is worthless.....

how anyone can read the first chapter of John and interpret anything other than the dazzling, glorious fact that Jesus is God, is beyond me.....

as soon as you say Jesus never claimed to be God, everything you say after that is lost on me....

Jesus did claim to be God.

He had authority to forgive sins, which is something only God Himself can do. Then, to authenticate His claim, He demonstrated His power by healing the paralytic.

John 5:1-18. Jesus heals a lame man on the Sabbath, which the unbelieving Jews gave Him a hard time about. His answer was, "My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I too am working." It was a well-known Jewish line of thought that, although God rested on the seventh day after Creation week, He continued to "work" in being loving, compassionate, and just, as well as keeping the earth producing, keeping the sun moving, etc. In other words, although the creating had stopped, the maintenance went on--even on the Sabbath, and that was the only "work" allowed on that day. So Jesus is putting Himself on the same level as his Father in working on the Sabbath. And by calling God "My Father" (instead of "Our Father"), He was claiming an intimate relationship with God that far exceeded anyone else's. So in these two ways, He was making Himself equal with God.

he also put himself equal to God in jewish court which is why they crucified him....

there are MANY more passages that prove Jesus is God...do i need to post more of them for you to understand this??

A HUGE MAJORITY of mainstream Christian churchs including the Catholics, include the fact that Jesus is God in their official church doctrines....

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well.....i'm off to bed...you must be researching....

can't wait to see what you come up with tomorrow!

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The doctrine of the trinity was decided on by vote at Nicaea. This occurred three hundred years after Jesus' death. If you read the church fathers, you don't see trinitarian thought begin to appear until the middle of the second century. It is mostly thanks to Athanasius' feud with Eusebius that the issue came up.

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i really can't get past this....the fact that Jesus is God (research: trinity) is central to Christianity....if Jesus is not God, Christianity is worthless.....

Certainly the legalistic type you embrace would seem to be.

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micah, please quote a passage from the Bible where Jesus says that he IS God, not that he is the SON of God.

Of course God could delegate power and authority to anyone he wished. Disciples could heal people, priests routinely give absolution for sins. So what?

The doctrine of the trinity is central to most Christian churches today, but that wasn't always the case. Jesus never taught it. Do you understand that Paul never actually met Jesus, and corrupted His message in order to make Christianity palatable to the Gentiles (since most Jews refused to disobey their God in order to follow a man who had the hallmarks of a false prophet)? The Gentiles balked at circumcision and Jewish dietary restrictions, so Paul came up with the brilliant idea to tell people that Jesus had abolished the Law. It was a lie, but it worked.

Do you know that John was written at least 60 years after Jesus died, the writers were not contempories of Jesus, and they had their own agenda to promote? Have you noticed that John is significantly different from the accounts of Mark, Luke and Matthew? Have you ever wondered why?

It is obvious that you do not do your own research, but have you ever actually read the entire Bible? I strongly recommend it.

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I think he just reads what his voices tell him to read. Gee, we can all testify when he shoots Bush to win the love of Jodie Foster. Rolling Eyes

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micah wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Don't these things sicken you?

honestly, it does not...we are Gods creatures....God is a holy God and his judgment is righteous...

Micah -- you are telling us that you are so frightened of this boogeyman that you are not sickened by it telling you:

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff "

You certainly have a right to your opinions.

But not only does this passage disgust me -- people like you who justify it and who refuse to see the absurdity in supposing this is more likely advice given by a GOD than primitive hogwash made up by an ancient Hebrews do a pretty good job of disgusting me also.

You should be ashamed of yourself for being so terrified of the unknown that you allow it to cloud your mind in this way.

You're young. I hope you finally get your fears under control. I'm sure we all here arguing against you -- hope you finally get your fears under control.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Micah -- you are telling us that you are so frightened of this boogeyman that you are not sickened by it telling you:

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff "

well, frank, he's not telling ME that....he WAS telling that to the Jews..i've already explained why were are no longer bound by the LAW..and while that passage is difficult to read, it becomes a bit more understandable in light of all the many visible undeniable miracles God performed for the Jews....

back in those days, things were different of course...i'd be willing to wager these 'stonings' rarely took place. it may have only taken one such event every hundred years to scare the living daylights out of all the children...

today....we have ritalin.....

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terry, i see your poor attempt to 'debunk' the old testament prophecies i have presented re: Jesus....

considering your refusal to acknowledge that Jesus is God (the most basic tenet of Christianity) i fear future discussions will bear no fruit...

i suggest you go and research for a few years until you can understand this most basic fact and then perhaps we can discuss these things further....

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micah wrote:

terry, i see your poor attempt to 'debunk' the old testament prophecies i have presented re: Jesus....

considering your refusal to acknowledge that Jesus is God (the most basic tenet of Christianity) i fear future discussions will bear no fruit...

i suggest you go and research for a few years until you can understand this most basic fact and then perhaps we can discuss these things further....

It appears you still have no understanding that your arguments are circular.

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Forgiveness and repentance

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