Forgiveness and repentance

Dono wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Can you imagine anyone willing to "love" a god who is willing to condemn people to unrelenting, excruciating torture in Hell for all the rest of eternity?

This god of theirs, if it were a human, would spend all its days locked in a cell more closely monitored than the cell in which Hannibal Lecter was housed in Silence of the Lambs.

This is a pathetic mythology.

God is not the one who has condemned them.

As a matter of fact, according to the mythology, the only way a person can get to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn them to that fate.

In any case, the god has a Hell waiting for people who offend it.

A rather pathetic concept of god, in my opinion.

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We all have free-will (because of God). They are condemning themselves. Jesus was not willing that ANY should perish which is the reason He gave His life for everyone. God cannot force anyone to believe in Him or to love Him. Freewill. The source of evil is not God's power but mankinds freedom. Even an all-powerful God could not have created a world in which people had genuine freedom and yet with no potentuality for sin, because our freedom includes the possibility of sin within it's own meaning. That potentuality for sin was actualized not by God, but by people. The blame, ultimately, lies with us.

Baloney! But at least this is an attempt at being more reasonable than you have been up 'til now.

I disagree with you.

The god could have given humans free-will -- and still not have created a place where people who could not (or were unwilling to) live up to its expectations would be SUBJECTED TO UNRELENETING, EXCRUCIATING TORTURE THROUGHOUT ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY.

That is a sick, sick notion.

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Portal Star wrote:

YOu don't have to have an education. It can be a good thing, but for many people it is just a piece of paper.

However, Micah said he was 20-somthing, didn't have extremely religious parents, and had a normal childhood. He also said he never had any relation with a cult.
What you just described seems like if your mother was a priest than she was very religous, and the cultish situation that she went through was not somthing normal.

Micah seems to have a twelve year old typing and argument style, ("that's dumb", "you're going to hell/ the FBI should investigate you" etc.) and the way you stick up for what he says in an extremely defensive manner is also characteristic of someone young. I don't care about your age of your education, but I don't like being lied to.

I said my mother was a minister, not a priest (big difference). She is very religious although she hates that terminology. And I prefer abusive situation instead of cultish. I will tell you that my husband and I used to be in private practice in psychiatry and I've heard 50 y\o men speak the same way. It can be characteristic of many things. I stick up for Micah because I admire him. I would admire him all the more if he were 12 and retarded because he has the b***'s to stand up for what he believes in inspite of the pursecution he gets here. I don't mind telling you that I am 51yrs young and didn't even begin to really sort out who I was much less what I believed until I was 40. And once again, I have never lied to you or anyone else on this forum. I have no reason to lie. I like me!

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Quote:

The god could have given humans free-will -- and still not have created a place where people who could not (or were unwilling to) live up to its expectations would be SUBJECTED TO UNRELENETING, EXCRUCIATING TORTURE THROUGHOUT ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY.

That is a sick, sick notion.

Frank. I agree that it IS a sick notion, but rather clever of the proponents of that concept. Nothing like guilt and abject terror to keep people in line, and maintain power and control over them.

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As a matter of fact, according to the mythology, the only way a person can get to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn them to that fate.

Sorry, Frank, but this is absolutely untrue.

The god could have given humans free-will -- and still not have created a place where people who could not (or were unwilling to) live up to its expectations would be SUBJECTED TO UNRELENETING, EXCRUCIATING TORTURE THROUGHOUT ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY.

Then what would be the point of having God, humans or free-will? And you never did answer my question: why are you such an angry person? You obviously believe in God or you couldn't hate Him so much. Do you think it's possible for you to speak reasonably? Why don't you try to show me you can?

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
The god could have given humans free-will -- and still not have created a place where people who could not (or were unwilling to) live up to its expectations would be SUBJECTED TO UNRELENETING, EXCRUCIATING TORTURE THROUGHOUT ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY.

That is a sick, sick notion.

Frank. I agree that it IS a sick notion, but rather clever of the proponents of that concept. Nothing like guilt and abject terror to keep people in line, and maintain power and control over them.

I agree also. That is a sick notion! But we have no proof that there really is a god. We do have, on the other hand, thousands and thousands of years of proof of how sick, demented and cruel we humans are.

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I'm sure you're aware of what all those initials stand for anyway, right? B.S.= bullshit, M.S.= more ****, and PhD........

I did go back and look - those aren't what the initials on my diplomas stand for- I think that may have been an insult, Dono.

I am not trying to hide behind my diplomas (which I am very proud of). I was responding to a statement micah made---

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as i've reasoned before, perhaps even some Budhists will make it into heaven on grounds of 'mental deficiencies' or maybe they didn't reach the age of accountability...

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Dono - you have no reason to defend Micah other than that he agrees with you. He is not being "persecuted," we are talking about our beliefs and his aren't the same (thankfully, he's often ignorant and rude) as many people here. If you had read earlier threads you would have found out that he really doesn't know much about the bible or biblical history, but that whenever countered by another christian or historian his arguments are somthing along the lies of "You're wrong, I'm right, you're stupid."
So don't rush to cry out persecution unless you have all the details, or really still feel that being opposed is the same as being persecuted.

How do you fix your patients? If all it takes to live a happy, fulfilled life is belief in Jesus-g-d, why don't you convert them and say they're cured?

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Dono wrote:

As a matter of fact, according to the mythology, the only way a person can get to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn them to that fate.

Sorry, Frank, but this is absolutely untrue.

The god could have given humans free-will -- and still not have created a place where people who could not (or were unwilling to) live up to its expectations would be SUBJECTED TO UNRELENETING, EXCRUCIATING TORTURE THROUGHOUT ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY.

Then what would be the point of having God, humans or free-will? And you never did answer my question: why are you such an angry person? You obviously believe in God or you couldn't hate Him so much. Do you think it's possible for you to speak reasonably? Why don't you try to show me you can?

Relating to the subject of forgiveness and repentance: I'm assuming you're an evangelical Christian, and therefore, according to your twisted paradigm, Jesus was brutally murdered to save you from your Gods moral system - where a person must be made a human sacrifice to save you from God's own self-decreed law. Hallelujah, we've come a long way since paganism. Those crazy pagans, what with thier absurd notions of animal sacrifices and such.....

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Portal Star wrote:

Dono - you have no reason to defend Micah other than that he agrees with you. He is not being "persecuted," we are talking about our beliefs and his aren't the same (thankfully, he's often ignorant and rude) as many people here. If you had read earlier threads you would have found out that he really doesn't know much about the bible or biblical history, but that whenever countered by another christian or historian his arguments are somthing along the lies of "You're wrong, I'm right, you're stupid."
So don't rush to cry out persecution unless you have all the details, or really still feel that being opposed is the same as being persecuted.

How do you fix your patients? If all it takes to live a happy, fulfilled life is belief in Jesus-g-d, why don't you convert them and say they're cured?

wow...you really have no idea what you're talking about...the challenge to find ONE christian who thinks i don't know what i'm talking about is still on...you think my typing style is like a twelve year olds??

i seriously thought you were 12.....and do i have to post here, the immature statements you've made in the last week??? there are quite a few....you've done nothing but insult me and show that you have ZERO understanding in regards to the bible....

Rolling Eyes

since i've been here i have determined that you are the most immature person in this forum....do i really need to post your silly statements???

when have i ever said anyone is going to hell????????

Rolling Eyes

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micah wrote:

wow...you really have no idea what you're talking about...the challenge to find ONE christian who thinks i don't know what i'm talking about is still on...you think my typing style is like a twelve year olds??

i seriously thought you were 12.....and do i have to post here, the immature statements you've made in the last week??? there are quite a few....you've done nothing but insult me and show that you have ZERO understanding in regards to the bible....

since i've been here i have determined that you are the most immature person in this forum....do i really need to post your silly statements???

when have i ever said anyone is going to hell????????

You're immune to logic. Nobody is persecuting you. You victimize yourself, constantly. In fact, nobody needs to persecute you, because your every post is a testament to to your utter inanity, as well as making a poignant statement about the failure of the education system in whatever God forsaken nation you come from. Portal Star has been nothing but amiable and truthfull in his discourse with you.

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I would like to go on the record as a christian who thinks Micah doesn't know what he's talking about.

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are you a Christian???

do you believe in the divinity of Jesus??

you think i don't know what i'm talking about?? give me an example, please? aren't you the one who said practicing Jews weren't a presence at the crucifixion? or was that someone else??

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Dono wrote:

As a matter of fact, according to the mythology, the only way a person can get to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn them to that fate.

Sorry, Frank, but this is absolutely untrue.

You don't know what you are talking about here, Dono.

According to the mythology -- the only way a person can go to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn his/her to that fate.

If the person invents a bomb so powerful that it can destroy the entire planet -- and with malice decides to use it -- the God can say, "I forgive you for this terrible deed" -- and the individual would not go to Hell. The God decides -- according to the mythology.

So you are wrong here.

Quote:

The god could have given humans free-will -- and still not have created a place where people who could not (or were unwilling to) live up to its expectations would be SUBJECTED TO UNRELENETING, EXCRUCIATING TORTURE THROUGHOUT ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY.

Then what would be the point of having God, humans or free-will?

That is another thing we don't know!

But perhaps there are no gods -- or perhaps there is no God like you suppose there is. Perhaps we simply live our lives and then die.

You are the one who supposes there is a God -- and that the God "gives" us "free will" -- and you are the one who supposes the God will punish people by subjecting them to excruciating torture throughout all the rest of eternity is they use that free-will the way they want rather than the way the god wants them to.

I consider that to be an absurd scenario. I suspect that if you were not in such terror of the god, you would also see it to be absurd.

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And you never did answer my question: why are you such an angry person?

Me angry???

You should spend some time with me. I am one of the happiest people I personally know. I went through treatment for non-Hodgkins lymphoma with a smile on my face. And damn near every one of my friends will tell you that I am seldom without that smile -- and that no matter what kind of adversity comes into my life, I ALWAYS try to find the silver lining on the cloud.

This is an Internet discussion forum. Sometimes it gets a bit heated. Try not to make too much of that. It makes you look foolish and presumptuous.

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You obviously believe in God or you couldn't hate Him so much.

I am an agnostic. I do not "believe in God" -- and I do not "believe" there are no gods.

I simply do not know.

If there is a God -- I certainly would not hate the God.

I don't think very much of Zeus -- and I think a lot less of that barbaric monster described in the Bible.

But simply because I mention that the god of the Bible is a murderous, vengeful, petty god -- don't suppose I think that any real GOD that might exist is like that.

Try to understand what is going on here.

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Do you think it's possible for you to speak reasonably? Why don't you try to show me you can?

I am extremely reasonable. Much, much, much more reasonable than you so far, Dono.

But let's start on a new footing.

Let's both stay away from personal comments -- and just discuss the subject at hand.

Keep in mind, however, that I have a completely different perspective on this issue from you -- and I have as much right to articulate that perspective as you have to articulate yours.

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I don't know Frank, I've seen some pretty snippy posts from you after a bad golf game........

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hobitbob wrote:

I don't know Frank, I've seen some pretty snippy posts from you after a bad golf game........

I'm a pussycat when posting after a bad round...

...or at least, as compared with the kind of thing Nancy has to put up with on those days. :wink: :wink:

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Portal Star wrote:

Dono wrote:
Portal Star wrote:
A mythology is only as dangerous as the interpretation of the person who weilds it.

Micah may grow up to be dangerous, but I fear much more for his brother (whose icon is a gun.) Jesus would be ashamed of such intolerance.

LOL! I'm definately not Micah's brother, in the sense you use. But I'm proud to his brother, actually, his sister in Christ!

BTW, I chose the gun after someone else decided to give me the "Flaming" icon. If that's offensive to you, I'll change it, even though I am a card carrying member of the NRA.

I like the NRA (or rather, I like that someone is fighting for gun-control opposition.) What I don't like is how some of your posts seem scary/forceful and your icon is also a gun. You can keep it, I don't care, but I percieve it as threatening because guns are a tool to kill. Do you understand?

Yep, I do understand and will be glad to change it!

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"As a matter of fact, according to the mythology, the only way a person can get to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn them to that fate.

In any case, the god has a Hell waiting for people who offend it.

A rather pathetic concept of god, in my opinion. "

Go back and read it again, Frank. The Bible clearly says the only way you will go to hell is by denouncing Jesus the Christ, who is the Son of God, who died for our sins and arose from the dead to sit at the Father's right hand. If you, on the other hand, acknowledge this, you are assured a place in Heaven. And you are entitled to your oppinion! But that's all it is.

"The god could have given humans free-will -- and still not have created a place where people who could not (or were unwilling to) live up to its expectations would be SUBJECTED TO UNRELENETING, EXCRUCIATING TORTURE THROUGHOUT ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY. "

God created man to be His companion although He will not force anyone to do so. That is free-will. What would be the point in creating a companion that you knew would decide to hate you because of the influence of evil, and not build in an escape route for the ones who did choose to love Him? Why would He choose to create us at all. I believe if He knew everyone would share your opinion, humanity would never have existed.
Do you believe there is a "devil" or "Satan"?

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Dono wrote:

"As a matter of fact, according to the mythology, the only way a person can get to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn them to that fate.

In any case, the god has a Hell waiting for people who offend it.

A rather pathetic concept of god, in my opinion. "

Go back and read it again, Frank. The Bible clearly says the only way you will go to hell is by denouncing Jesus the Christ, who is the Son of God, who died for our sins and arose from the dead to sit at the Father's right hand. If you, on the other hand, acknowledge this, you are assured a place in Heaven. And you are entitled to your oppinion! But that's all it is.

I DEFY YOU TO PRODUCE A QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CLEARLY SAYS THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS BY DENOUNCING JESUS THE CHRIST.

I DEFY YOU TO PRODUCE IT.

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Dono wrote:
As a matter of fact, according to the mythology, the only way a person can get to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn them to that fate.

Sorry, Frank, but this is absolutely untrue.

You don't know what you are talking about here, Dono.

According to the mythology -- the only way a person can go to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn his/her to that fate.

If the person invents a bomb so powerful that it can destroy the entire planet -- and with malice decides to use it -- the God can say, "I forgive you for this terrible deed" -- and the individual would not go to Hell. The God decides -- according to the mythology.

So you are wrong here.

Quote:
The god could have given humans free-will -- and still not have created a place where people who could not (or were unwilling to) live up to its expectations would be SUBJECTED TO UNRELENETING, EXCRUCIATING TORTURE THROUGHOUT ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY.

Then what would be the point of having God, humans or free-will?

That is another thing we don't know!

But perhaps there are no gods -- or perhaps there is no God like you suppose there is. Perhaps we simply live our lives and then die.

You are the one who supposes there is a God -- and that the God "gives" us "free will" -- and you are the one who supposes the God will punish people by subjecting them to excruciating torture throughout all the rest of eternity is they use that free-will the way they want rather than the way the god wants them to.

I consider that to be an absurd scenario. I suspect that if you were not in such terror of the god, you would also see it to be absurd.

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And you never did answer my question: why are you such an angry person?

"Me angry???

You should spend some time with me. I am one of the happiest people I personally know. I went through treatment for non-Hodgkins lymphoma with a smile on my face. And damn near every one of my friends will tell you that I am seldom without that smile -- and that no matter what kind of adversity comes into my life, I ALWAYS try to find the silver lining on the cloud.

This is an Internet discussion forum. Sometimes it gets a bit heated. Try not to make too much of that. It makes you look foolish and presumptuous. "

There is absolutely nothing in your posts that makes you come across as happy. I think what you convey as a smile is actually a smirk. And as far as me looking foolish and presumptuous.....maybe I do but you win the gold for arrogance and rudeness.

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"But let's start on a new footing.

Let's both stay away from personal comments -- and just discuss the subject at hand.

Keep in mind, however, that I have a completely different perspective on this issue from you -- and I have as much right to articulate that perspective as you have to articulate yours. "

I don't think you'll last very long because you love the sound of your own voice so much but it's a deal!

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Forgiveness and repentance

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