Forgiveness and repentance

Frank Apisa wrote:

Dono wrote:
"As a matter of fact, according to the mythology, the only way a person can get to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn them to that fate.

In any case, the god has a Hell waiting for people who offend it.

A rather pathetic concept of god, in my opinion. "

Go back and read it again, Frank. The Bible clearly says the only way you will go to hell is by denouncing Jesus the Christ, who is the Son of God, who died for our sins and arose from the dead to sit at the Father's right hand. If you, on the other hand, acknowledge this, you are assured a place in Heaven. And you are entitled to your oppinion! But that's all it is.

I DEFY YOU TO PRODUCE A QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CLEARLY SAYS THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS BY DENOUNCING JESUS THE CHRIST.

I DEFY YOU TO PRODUCE IT.

Wow, Frank, all that "SCREAMING" kicked my computer completely off line!!! I know this is a lesson in futility but the first one that jumps to mind is John 3:16, then, John 3:35,36, then John 5:20-23, then John 5:24 and the list goes on and on but: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I shall heal them." said Isaiah. And I firmly believe you fall squarely into this catagory.

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Dono wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Dono wrote:
"As a matter of fact, according to the mythology, the only way a person can get to Hell is for the god of the mythology to condemn them to that fate.

In any case, the god has a Hell waiting for people who offend it.

A rather pathetic concept of god, in my opinion. "

Go back and read it again, Frank. The Bible clearly says the only way you will go to hell is by denouncing Jesus the Christ, who is the Son of God, who died for our sins and arose from the dead to sit at the Father's right hand. If you, on the other hand, acknowledge this, you are assured a place in Heaven. And you are entitled to your oppinion! But that's all it is.

I DEFY YOU TO PRODUCE A QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CLEARLY SAYS THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS BY DENOUNCING JESUS THE CHRIST.

I DEFY YOU TO PRODUCE IT.

Wow, Frank, all that "SCREAMING" kicked my computer completely off line!!! I know this is a lesson in futility but the first one that jumps to mind is John 3:16, then, John 3:35,36, then John 5:20-23, then John 5:24 and the list goes on and on but: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I shall heal them." said Isaiah. And I firmly believe you fall squarely into this catagory.

Dono

Either post a quote from the Bible that CLEARLY SAYS THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS BY DENOUNCING JESUS THE CHRIST -- or acknowledge that you cannot.

You can't!

The passages at John 3:16, John 3:35,36, John 5:20-23, and John 5:24 do not say anything EVEN CLOSE to that.

So you really should have the guts to acknowledge that you were just shooting off your mouth -- and you cannot back it up.

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I think it's funny how, when discussing religion, people's happiness always comes into question. There seem to be no solid ties to happiness and religion - happiness is tied to genetics and lifestyle and life experiences. Jesus was not a happy christian*, and neither were the vast majority of the saints.

(*It is said he was a Jew, but he really wasn't if he thought he was the new messiah.* Being that Christians -Are Supposed to live like Christ- technically Christ was the first Christian [although not the first candidate for Jewish messiah.])

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Dono

Either post a quote from the Bible that CLEARLY SAYS THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS BY DENOUNCING JESUS THE CHRIST -- or acknowledge that you cannot.

Frank, that's as clear as it's ever going to be for you, I fear.

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Ps Like I said before, Frank, your blinded by your fear, anger, mistrust and stubborness.

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Dono wrote:

Ps Like I said before, Frank, your blinded by your fear, anger, mistrust and stubborness.

What a laugh you are.

You made a statement and you cannot back it up -- and you don't have the integrity, honor, or honesty to acknowledge that you cannot...

...and you dare to presume to give lectures on devotion to gods.

What a hypocritical position!

How very typical of big-mouthed Christians who come on the Internet to proclaim their moral superiority.

In any case -- you wrote:

Quote:

Go back and read it again, Frank. The Bible clearly says the only way you will go to hell is by denouncing Jesus the Christ...

I say that is a bunch of **** -- and that the Bible does not say anything of the sort.

I DEFY YOU TO POST A PASSAGE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CLEARLY STATES THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS BY DENOUNCING JESUS!

You can't do it!

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Hey, now! Mind the sticks, kids.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Dono wrote:
Ps Like I said before, Frank, your blinded by your fear, anger, mistrust and stubborness.

What a laugh you are.

You made a statement and you cannot back it up -- and you don't have the integrity, honor, or honesty to acknowledge that you cannot...

...and you dare to presume to give lectures on devotion to gods.

What a hypocritical position!

How very typical of big-mouthed Christians who come on the Internet to proclaim their moral superiority.

In any case -- you wrote:

Quote:
Go back and read it again, Frank. The Bible clearly says the only way you will go to hell is by denouncing Jesus the Christ...

I say that is a bunch of **** -- and that the Bible does not say anything of the sort.

I DEFY YOU TO POST A PASSAGE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CLEARLY STATES THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS BY DENOUNCING JESUS!

You can't do it!

I answered your question to the best of my knowledge, this is what I beleive and how I interpreet the Bible. What gives you the right to call me dishonest and lackinging integrity and honor. Nothing about what I said is hypocritical! You throw those words around alot and you swear and huff and puff; are you sure you know the definition of the wordsyou use or is your vocabulary that limited? You're going to get the site shut down again just because of your unchecked anger. Again. I predicted you couldn't stay on an even keel very long and you prove it over and over. I've never once heard you say anything of value except that you know that no one knows whether there is a God of not. You deny being an angry guy but listen to you?!?!?!?!? What is your background, your history with religion? I have NEVER claimed moral superiority! Or superiority of any kind. Cool your jets and just tell me what your past is. Please! :wink:
Why can't we be friends who choose to disagree? I don't go ballistic everytime you say something I disagree with! There is absolutely no point in conversing this way. Are you capable of laying aside your fears and anger and just having a conversation without all of the sarcasm and insults?
If so, prove it!!! I DEFY YOU TO PROVE IT!!!!! Twisted Evil

(Sorry, that was me having a laugh at you) Cool

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Sorry, Donno, I am going to have to side with Frank on this one: the bible doesn't explicity say that believing in Christ will prevent you from going to hell. Yet that is how many churches and Christians interpret it. I think that shows how much Christianity is influenced by how the text is interpreted.

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Dono wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Dono wrote:
Ps Like I said before, Frank, your blinded by your fear, anger, mistrust and stubborness.

What a laugh you are.

You made a statement and you cannot back it up -- and you don't have the integrity, honor, or honesty to acknowledge that you cannot...

...and you dare to presume to give lectures on devotion to gods.

What a hypocritical position!

How very typical of big-mouthed Christians who come on the Internet to proclaim their moral superiority.

In any case -- you wrote:

Quote:
Go back and read it again, Frank. The Bible clearly says the only way you will go to hell is by denouncing Jesus the Christ...

I say that is a bunch of **** -- and that the Bible does not say anything of the sort.

I DEFY YOU TO POST A PASSAGE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CLEARLY STATES THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS BY DENOUNCING JESUS!

You can't do it!

I answered your question to the best of my knowledge, this is what I beleive and how I interpreet the Bible. What gives you the right to call me dishonest and lackinging integrity and honor. Nothing about what I said is hypocritical! You throw those words around alot and you swear and huff and puff; are you sure you know the definition of the wordsyou use or is your vocabulary that limited? You're going to get the site shut down again just because of your unchecked anger. Again. I predicted you couldn't stay on an even keel very long and you prove it over and over. I've never once heard you say anything of value except that you know that no one knows whether there is a God of not. You deny being an angry guy but listen to you?!?!?!?!? What is your background, your history with religion? I have NEVER claimed moral superiority! Or superiority of any kind. Cool your jets and just tell me what your past is. Please! :wink:
Why can't we be friends who choose to disagree? I don't go ballistic everytime you say something I disagree with! There is absolutely no point in conversing this way. Are you capable of laying aside your fears and anger and just having a conversation without all of the sarcasm and insults?
If so, prove it!!! I DEFY YOU TO PROVE IT!!!!!
(Sorry, that was me having a laugh at you)

That was a very roundabout way of telling us that you are unable to produce on your comment that the Bible clearly says that the only way anyone will go to Hell is by denouncing Jesus.

But we all knew you couldn't produce it, because the Bible simply does not say that.

I have no problem with discussing things with you in a civil and respectful way, Bono.

But you must show respect also.

You really should acknowledge that the Bible does not say (clearly or otherwise) that the only way one will end up in Hell is if one rejects Jesus.

Read the passages YOU furnished again. You will see that I am correct.

Better yet, type them out and post them in this thread. We can all discuss them and see if in fact they come even close to saying what you say they say.

Nancy and I are going out for a walk right now. Gorgeous day. I truly hope you are having a good day also, Bono.

Peace!

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Dono wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Dono wrote:
Ps Like I said before, Frank, your blinded by your fear, anger, mistrust and stubborness.

What a laugh you are.

You made a statement and you cannot back it up -- and you don't have the integrity, honor, or honesty to acknowledge that you cannot...

...and you dare to presume to give lectures on devotion to gods.

What a hypocritical position!

How very typical of big-mouthed Christians who come on the Internet to proclaim their moral superiority.

In any case -- you wrote:

Quote:
Go back and read it again, Frank. The Bible clearly says the only way you will go to hell is by denouncing Jesus the Christ...

I say that is a bunch of **** -- and that the Bible does not say anything of the sort.

I DEFY YOU TO POST A PASSAGE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CLEARLY STATES THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GO TO HELL IS BY DENOUNCING JESUS!

You can't do it!

I answered your question to the best of my knowledge, this is what I beleive and how I interpreet the Bible. What gives you the right to call me dishonest and lackinging integrity and honor. Nothing about what I said is hypocritical! You throw those words around alot and you swear and huff and puff; are you sure you know the definition of the wordsyou use or is your vocabulary that limited? You're going to get the site shut down again just because of your unchecked anger. Again. I predicted you couldn't stay on an even keel very long and you prove it over and over. I've never once heard you say anything of value except that you know that no one knows whether there is a God of not. You deny being an angry guy but listen to you?!?!?!?!? What is your background, your history with religion? I have NEVER claimed moral superiority! Or superiority of any kind. Cool your jets and just tell me what your past is. Please! :wink:
Why can't we be friends who choose to disagree? I don't go ballistic everytime you say something I disagree with! There is absolutely no point in conversing this way. Are you capable of laying aside your fears and anger and just having a conversation without all of the sarcasm and insults?
If so, prove it!!! I DEFY YOU TO PROVE IT!!!!!
(Sorry, that was me having a laugh at you)

That was a very roundabout way of telling us that you are unable to produce on your comment that the Bible clearly says that the only way anyone will go to Hell is by denouncing Jesus.

But we all knew you couldn't produce it, because the Bible simply does not say that.

I have no problem with discussing things with you in a civil and respectful way, Bono.

But you must show respect also.

You really should acknowledge that the Bible does not say (clearly or otherwise) that the only way one will end up in Hell is if one rejects Jesus.

Read the passages YOU furnished again. You will see that I am correct.

Better yet, type them out and post them in this thread. We can all discuss them and see if in fact they come even close to saying what you say they say.

Nancy and I are going out for a walk right now. Gorgeous day. I truly hope you are having a good day also, Bono.

Peace!

Frank, I'm through with you until you answer some of my questions. You must really be repressed and frustrated if the only way you can get off is by trying to humiliate other people.

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Dono wrote:

Frank, I'm through with you until you answer some of my questions. You must really be repressed and frustrated if the only way you can get off is by trying to humiliate other people.

I held out a hand of friendship -- and it was refused.

I hold it out again.

I would like to start with a clean palette with you.

You are a gutsy individual --and you defend what you hold to be important. Those are qualities that I admire. So -- along with the hand of friendship, I offer my respect.

I promise I will not try to "humiliate" you in our discussion -- nor will I be patronizing or condescending.

I will discuss this topic respectfully and courteously -- and if I think you are being too unreasonable for me to do that honorably, I will simply suspend discussions.

This is an absolute commitment.

Now -- you have some questions you mentioned that I have not answered.

Propose them again and I will answer them to the best of my abilities.

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Micah, first of all, you said yourself that any jews practicing the true spirit of their religion would have accepted Jesus as their savior, which is a standard christian belief, and supports the idea that those men who did not accept him, and in fact killed him, were not practicing the spirit of their religion. Sure, they followed the letter of the law, but according to Christ's own words, they only did it for the glory of men. So my statement stands. In the same sense, the things you say seem to follow the letter of the laws of Christianity, but don't embody the spirit of it. In any case, Christians have killed far more jews than jews have killed christians, so I don't find anything wrong in defending the character of jews in general, over christians in general.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Dono wrote:
Frank, I'm through with you until you answer some of my questions. You must really be repressed and frustrated if the only way you can get off is by trying to humiliate other people.

I held out a hand of friendship -- and it was refused.

I hold it out again.

I would like to start with a clean palette with you.

You are a gutsy individual --and you defend what you hold to be important. Those are qualities that I admire. So -- along with the hand of friendship, I offer my respect.

I promise I will not try to "humiliate" you in our discussion -- nor will I be patronizing or condescending.

I will discuss this topic respectfully and courteously -- and if I think you are being too unreasonable for me to do that honorably, I will simply suspend discussions.

This is an absolute commitment.

Now -- you have some questions you mentioned that I have not answered.

Propose them again and I will answer them to the best of my abilities.

I'm curious about your history. Were you raised to believe in any religion? If so, what happened?

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Dono wrote:

I'm curious about your history. Were you raised to believe in any religion?

I was raised a Catholic.

Served Mass until my early 20's -- in fact, I actually served Mass in St. Peter's Bascilica in the Vatican -- and at one time served as an acolyte in a ceremony conducted by the Cardinal of England.

For a long time I considered a vocation as a priest -- and studied for the priesthood -- although I never officially entered a seminary.

Good thing for me and for the Church, because my addiction to women is quite strong and it would never have worked out. (I am true blue to Nancy now!)

My family is mainly Catholic -- and my Mom was a daily church attender until her death. Pop was not especially into religion -- although I don't know that I ever heard him say anything truly negative about it.

Quote:

If so, what happened?

I grew up.

At some point in my life I recognized that Santa Claus was more than likely a myth -- and a bit later (quite a bit later) I recognized that the religions based on the Bible were more than likely myths.

So I became an agnostic -- and my life was transformed for the better.

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LOL ... I saw the question last night, Frank, and I was tempted to answer "He grew up", but I figured it'd be best to let you say so yourself. As for a parochial education, I'll credit the Jebbies for having refined in me a critical attitude and a healthy scepticism. I remain forever in their debt.

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I find it sad to see what a low level the discussions here have dropped to. I realise of course that religion is a sensitive topic, but that's no excuse for personal attacks and such. Surely it shouldn't be that hard to have some more civilised discussions?

Anyway, if there is anything that has been made clear to me in this thread, it is that people interpret what they read based on that which they already know/think they know/believe/hope etc, and that a sentence interpreted literally and brought out of its context often can be interpreted to mean just about anything.

Many people here are apparently sceptical about Christianity, and approach the bible with a very sceptical mindset, which of course results in coloured interpretations. I would like to suggest to these people that they stop judging the entire religion based on some random quotes from the old testament, or whatever, and that they at least judge it based on that which is central, i.e. the life and teachings of Jesus. For example: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength, and your neighbour like yourself. Do to others as you would have them do to you. Love those who hate you; bless those who curse you; pray for those who mistreat you, etc. This is ultimately what Christianity is all about, and not about some angry, jealous or wrathful old man with a beard who calls down punishments upon anyone who opposes him.

The bible is after all written by humans (albeit divinely inspired), and humans err and misunderstand. That the bible is not God's infallible word in writing should be evident, considering all the contradictions existing in it. God is not contradictory, man is. As I see it, one can either believe in "be you perfect even as your heavenly father is perfect", or one can believe that God is some angry, jealous old man who condones evil, and punishes anyone who doesn't grovel in the dirt before him. I don't see how anyone could believe in both.

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Quote:

Many people here are apparently skeptical about Christianity, and approach the bible with a very skeptical mindset, which of course results in coloured interpretations.

Many people here are not skeptical about Christianity, and approach the bible without a skeptical mindset, which of course results in coloured interpretations.

Rolling Eyes

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"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength, and your neighbour like yourself. Do to others as you would have them do to you. Love those who hate you; bless those who curse you; pray for those who mistreat you, etc"

Hey, I think these are great teachings. I also think a lot of the things Jesus is said to have said and some of the disciples (especially Matthew) wrote were good. I have no problem with people using them as fenceposts to guide their lives.
The place where I am skeptical are words like "divinely inspired" and "lord, g-d." There is no evidence for the existance of g-ds or a messiah - you can believe them if you want, but that doesn't make it universal truth. You can approach the Bible and jesus as a book and a man, or as a divine document and diety. I chose the former, given the light of history and the history of religion - but that doesn't mean you have to. Just don't make the assumption that my beliefs are unfounded or that my emotions/intuition are not open or are invalid.

Why don't you just give science a try, or Buddhism, or another branch of philosophy? Maybe your heart is the one not open. And you have to give them a real chance. Clearly you haven't given them a real chance or you would believe. - I don't really believe this, but you see it is the same argument from the other side.

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Portal Star wrote:

Why don't you just give science a try, or Buddhism, or another branch of philosophy? Maybe your heart is the one not open. And you have to give them a real chance. Clearly you haven't given them a real chance or you would believe. - I don't really believe this, but you see it is the same argument from the other side.

Or I would believe what?

You don't really believe what?

I don't understand what you mean by giving science a try. Is science and the life and teachings of Jesus supposed to be contradictory?

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Forgiveness and repentance

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