Forgiveness and repentance

micah wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
One, either you neglected to point out where "Heaven and Earth have passed away" -- or you realized your arguments were nonsense and simply avoided dealing with it.

sorry, i have no idea what you're talking about here...

Well you should.

I quoted a passage where Jesus said not one word of the law -- not one letter of the law -- not one stroke of one letter of the law -- shall be done away with until heaven and earth pass away.

You never did reply to that. You are saying that those laws do not apply -- because of what Paul wrote.

Deal with the fact that JESUS said that the laws all stand until heaven and earth pass away.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Two, you quoted Paul as to why the words of Jesus are not to be taken seriously.

where EXACTLY did i say that???

You quoted Corinthians, Galatians, and Hebrews -- the words of Paul in refutation of the words of Jesus.

You do read what you write, don't you?

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micah wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
How about making some arguments about how you know all this stuff you are purporting to know that are outside that myopic mindset.

i have done so in other threads and you know it...

I do not know that at all.

How do you KNOW all the stuff you are purporting to know?

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micah wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Earlier you avoided answering this issue by proclaiming that "Jesus pleads with us to love our enemies."

i found it to be an appropriate response...it was quite an ignorant question in the first place...anyone with a decent knowledge of the bible understands the absurdity of the question..

Hummm...so you think questioning why this loving, forgiving, kind, reasonable god tells us how to slaughter our enemies is ignorant, do you?

I think there is a bit of ignorance being displayed here, Micah, but it will not be found in any of my questions. If it is something that truly interests you, I would suggest you check some of your responses.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

micah wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
One, either you neglected to point out where "Heaven and Earth have passed away" -- or you realized your arguments were nonsense and simply avoided dealing with it.

sorry, i have no idea what you're talking about here...

Well you should.

I quoted a passage where Jesus said not one word of the law -- not one letter of the law -- not one stroke of one letter of the law -- shall be done away with until heaven and earth pass away.

You never did reply to that. You are saying that those laws do not apply -- because of what Paul wrote.

Deal with the fact that JESUS said that the laws all stand until heaven and earth pass away.

the scriptures i posted here re: the law deal with that....i'm deeply sorry if you can not grasp these concepts...nothing Paul says conflicts with what Jesus says...

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truth
So, Micah, if "normal people do not do deplorable things" then the ten commandments were formulated for the control of deviants only? Why not, then, focus on the development of ethical character in our education system, the formation of people who simply do not want to kill babies and rape women (your examples) instead of, negatively, just teaching them that if they do submit to temptation (which implies desire) to kill babies and rape women (and other sins) they will burn in Hell forever?
It is sometmes said that famililarity breeds contempt and that that is why brothers and sisters do not want to have sex with each other, but that we must have incest rules nevertheless because of the occasional deviant. Is this the model you present here for the importance of external moral control?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

micah wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
How about making some arguments about how you know all this stuff you are purporting to know that are outside that myopic mindset.

i have done so in other threads and you know it...

I do not know that at all.

How do you KNOW all the stuff you are purporting to know?

as i have said before, it is a faith based on evidence.....some of which i have presented here in other threads....

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Hummm...so you think questioning why this loving, forgiving, kind, reasonable god tells us how to slaughter our enemies is ignorant, do you?

it is a valid question....but anyone who has read the bible knows the differences between the old and the new testament...earlier you said, "Well...apparently without your god to tell you not to rape and pillage, apparently you would be doing both those things"

in my humble opinion, that was an ignorant statement....i don't understand how someone could read the bible and come up with that....hence, my assuming that you are ignorant and have not read the bible nor understood it.

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Re: truth

JLNobody wrote:

if "normal people do not do deplorable things" then the ten commandments were formulated for the control of deviants only?

what it comes down to is loving God....which leads to obeying God....not just re: deplorable things...

i only wanted to present the fact that subjective feelings can not be used to determine right and wrong, which, i feel, i have made a strong case for.

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Portal Star wrote:

Then micah made some posts showing his limitless bible/chuch/cult response knowledge and that he knew absolutely nothing about evolution or how it worked, which is why I brought up actually reading the source material - the best way to learn about it.

Furthermore, the E. coli bacterial flagellum simply could not have evolved gradually over time. The bacterial flagellum is an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. There is absolutely no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the bacterial flagellum. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, 1996.)

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to Frank,
I also am an agnostic/ athiest. I agree with much of what you are saying. I do think that there is a function of religion in our society. I don't think that the majority of people would live moral lives without religion. I don't think they could formulate a moral system of beliefs --- because they need the "threat" of hell.

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micah wrote:

i have posted evidence...here is ONE example:

am i really to believe the prophecies re: Jesus were 'Lucky'??? here are some:

1. The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger

Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:
A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem

Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod...

3. The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah

Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) says:
This passage talks about a ruler coming from the Tribe of Judah, one whose rule will be all-powerful:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."
New Testament (Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16):
Here you'll find a list of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel).

4. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a colt

Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) says:
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
New Testament (Luke 19:35-37) says:
They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen

5. The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend

Old Testament (Psalms 41:9) says:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
New Testament (Matthew 26:47-50) says:
While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.

6. The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver

Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12) says:
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
New Testament (Matthew 26:14-15) says:
Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

7. The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten

Old Testament (Isaiah 50:6) says:
I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
New Testament (Matthew 26:67-68) says:
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

8. The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5) says:
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
New Testament (Matthew 27:26) says:
Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

9. The Messiah would be silent before His accusers

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7) says:
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
New Testament (Matthew 27:12-14) says:
When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor.

10. The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field

Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) says:
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.

11. The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced

Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:
Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

12. The Messiah would be crucified with thieves

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:12) says:
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
New Testament (Matthew 27:38) says:
Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.

Now what do you suppose the odds are for these twelve prophecies being fulfilled in one man's life? What are the odds of Jesus being born in Bethlehem, a little town in the midst of hundreds of towns and cities in Israel?

The prophecy of Jesus having his hands and feet pierced was written hundreds of years before the Roman Empire invented crucifixion as a form of execution.

Who would believe a King would ride into a great city on the back of an donkey? Who else would be silent and not speak a word in his own defense, after being beaten, spit upon, and having the hairs of his beard plucked from his cheeks?

The prophecy that Jesus would be born into a family from the tribe of Judah is a 12-to-1 shot because there are 12 tribes of Israel. But, as Christian scholar Grant Jeffrey figured out, for all these prophecies to come true in one man's life would be 1 chance in 10 billion times a billion. And, there are many more Bible prophecies about a Messiah that have been fulfilled by Jesus, and we have only listed 12 of those prophecies here.

The new testament is based on the old testament. Jesus was Jewish, and built his teachings off of the old testament, as did his followers. Of -course- they correspond. A fiction novelest does not write a series completely ignoring his previous works. This is not evidence, it is a circular argument - the old testament and the new testament are two chapters of the same book.

But what you did do correctly was properly quoting your sources, and stating them clearly. This is a very good start to a discussion.

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micah wrote:

Portal Star wrote:
Then micah made some posts showing his limitless bible/chuch/cult response knowledge and that he knew absolutely nothing about evolution or how it worked, which is why I brought up actually reading the source material - the best way to learn about it.

Furthermore, the E. coli bacterial flagellum simply could not have evolved gradually over time. The bacterial flagellum is an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. There is absolutely no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the bacterial flagellum. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, 1996.)

Believe it or not, I have heard this argument before (from an otherwise intelligent person.) This response confirms every statement I said above.

Complexity in no way negates or threatens the concept of evolution. Neither does the "mousetrap" argument, basically the same argument only used for the existance of g-d in relation to such simple organisms. I would also like to restate that there is no reason evolutionary theory and belief in a Christian g-d cannot co-exist.

Do you have any knowledge that doesn't stem from biblical study? Surely, you must have had -some- secular education. Were you raised by fundamentalists in a parochial school? All of your knowledge seems filtered, which amazes me.

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Portal Star wrote:

The new testament is based on the old testament. Jesus was Jewish, and built his teachings off of the old testament, as did his followers. Of -course- they correspond.

i think you're not realizing that 400 years passed between the testaments...consider this and then re-read the 12 prophecies i posted, and then you will understand my point

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Portal Star wrote:

Complexity in no way negates or threatens the concept of evolution.

i'm not just talking about 'complexity'...i'm talking about irreducible complexity...for example:

re: e. coli: (as i posted earlier) 'If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral.'

which means, it could not have evolved...think on this

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micah wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
micah wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
One, either you neglected to point out where "Heaven and Earth have passed away" -- or you realized your arguments were nonsense and simply avoided dealing with it.

sorry, i have no idea what you're talking about here...

Well you should.

I quoted a passage where Jesus said not one word of the law -- not one letter of the law -- not one stroke of one letter of the law -- shall be done away with until heaven and earth pass away.

You never did reply to that. You are saying that those laws do not apply -- because of what Paul wrote.

Deal with the fact that JESUS said that the laws all stand until heaven and earth pass away.

the scriptures i posted here re: the law deal with that....i'm deeply sorry if you can not grasp these concepts...nothing Paul says conflicts with what Jesus says...

Okay -- then we agree.

The laws of the Old Testament still are in force.

You still are instructed to stone people who engage in homosexual conduct to death -- and you are to burn people to death who engage in incest.

Interesting religion!

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micah wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Hummm...so you think questioning why this loving, forgiving, kind, reasonable god tells us how to slaughter our enemies is ignorant, do you?

it is a valid question....but anyone who has read the bible knows the differences between the old and the new testament...earlier you said, "Well...apparently without your god to tell you not to rape and pillage, apparently you would be doing both those things"

in my humble opinion, that was an ignorant statement....i don't understand how someone could read the bible and come up with that....hence, my assuming that you are ignorant and have not read the bible nor understood it.

I know people like you want to divorce yourself from the god of the Bible -- which is to say, the god of the Old Testament.

That is something in your favor.

It shows you recognize that the god of the Bible is a barbarian.

The god of the Old Testament, Micah, is the god of the New Testament also.

Deal with that. Open your eyes. Stop the denial.

Once again, I agree with you that there is ignorance being displayed in this thread -- but you are looking in the wrong place if you are looking in my posts for it. Unless of course, you are looking in my posts at quotes of your posts.

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beebo wrote:

to Frank,
I also am an agnostic/ athiest. I agree with much of what you are saying. I do think that there is a function of religion in our society. I don't think that the majority of people would live moral lives without religion. I don't think they could formulate a moral system of beliefs --- because they need the "threat" of hell.

Well, that is a problem for the religious people. I am sure you have no problem leading a reasonable, moral, ethical life. Frankly, I personally don't know any agnostics or atheists who have a problem with that.

And from what I gather -- our prisons are filled with very, very religious folk.

It appears they would have trouble without a god to guide them. It appears they have trouble even with a god.

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micah posted:

Quote:

Ihave posted evidence...here is ONE example:

1. The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger

Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:
A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem

Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod...

3. The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah

Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) says:
This passage talks about a ruler coming from the Tribe of Judah, one whose rule will be all-powerful:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."
New Testament (Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16):
Here you'll find a list of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel).

4. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a colt

Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) says:
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
New Testament (Luke 19:35-37) says:
They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen

5. The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend

Old Testament (Psalms 41:9) says:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
New Testament (Matthew 26:47-50) says:
While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.

6. The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver

Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12) says:
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
New Testament (Matthew 26:14-15) says:
Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

7. The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten

Old Testament (Isaiah 50:6) says:
I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
New Testament (Matthew 26:67-68) says:
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

8. The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5) says:
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
New Testament (Matthew 27:26) says:
Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

9. The Messiah would be silent before His accusers

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7) says:
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
New Testament (Matthew 27:12-14) says:
When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor.

10. The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field

Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) says:
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.

11. The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced

Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:
Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

12. The Messiah would be crucified with thieves

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:12) says:
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
New Testament (Matthew 27:38) says:
Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.

Now what do you suppose the odds are for these twelve prophecies being fulfilled in one man's life? What are the odds of Jesus being born in Bethlehem, a little town in the midst of hundreds of towns and cities in Israel?

The prophecy of Jesus having his hands and feet pierced was written hundreds of years before the Roman Empire invented crucifixion as a form of execution.

Who would believe a King would ride into a great city on the back of an donkey? Who else would be silent and not speak a word in his own defense, after being beaten, spit upon, and having the hairs of his beard plucked from his cheeks?

The prophecy that Jesus would be born into a family from the tribe of Judah is a 12-to-1 shot because there are 12 tribes of Israel. But, as Christian scholar Grant Jeffrey figured out, for all these prophecies to come true in one man's life would be 1 chance in 10 billion times a billion. And, there are many more Bible prophecies about a Messiah that have been fulfilled by Jesus, and we have only listed 12 of those prophecies here.

am i really to believe the prophecies re: Jesus were 'Lucky'??? here are some:

Yes, you should "believe" they were luck -- or that they have been shoe horned in an attempt to make them look as though they are prophesies.

Each of them has been thoroughly debunked -- and most do not come up to the standard of a store front fortune teller saying, "You will meet a woman...."

If you really want me to post the sites where these supposed prophesies are shown for what they are -- bunk -- I will do so, but I already gave them to you once.

Please, if you have some real proofs, present them. But since you seem to comment on ignorance as much as you do, don't insult our intelligence with this nonsense.

The so-called Biblical prophesies are jokes. And has been pointed out, they are part of the Old Testament that you try so hard to distance yourself from when it is not convenient for you to do otherwise.

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Quote:

re: e. coli: (as i posted earlier) 'If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral.'

Have you ever actually taken a biology class? This has nothing to do with whether or no molecular motor mechanisms could have evolved. You are displaying a staggering ignorance regarding basic evolutionary theory, in addition to your comments regarding the bible, which lead me to wonder if you've ever actually read the thing!

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micah wrote:

Portal Star wrote:
Complexity in no way negates or threatens the concept of evolution.

i'm not just talking about 'complexity'...i'm talking about irreducible complexity...for example:

re: e. coli: (as i posted earlier) 'If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral.'

which means, it could not have evolved...think on this

Like I said, evolution does not necessarily mean from the beginning of life. The argument attempts to say that life needs to start with somthing, as in the flagellum's parts were not inhereted. It is a weak argument because our not knowing about the flagellum does not mean that it was not another species in the past. It also assumes that evolution conflicts with creation - it doesn't, evolution is a description of change in existing things. You clearly have no idea what evolution is or what it means to science. Maybe you will understand if I put it to you this way:

Would I know the bible if I only ever read staunch atheist criticisms of it?
I think your answer would be, "no." To read the source.

For the same reasons, I am saying you don't know anything about evolution. You seem to have only read fundamentalist Christian critisisms who are against the theory because they assume it conflicts with their strong belief in g-d.

As Hobit Bob stated, you clearly know nothing about Biology. It would be best for you to admit this, and do some learning about the world. It is an amazing thing. Try taking an introduction to biology class or reading a basic bio textbook.

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