micah wrote:Portal Star wrote:If you get the time, it's a difficult read but definately not indecipherable
i'll read it if you read Luther Sunderlands', "Darwin's Enigma", 1988.
I am going to assume it is not based on science. I am tempted to agree but am honestly too busy for any additional reading material (I'm assuming it's longer than 100 pages.)
Maybe I'll take you up on it later. Meanwhile, learning is never a bad thing. If you get the chance I still recommend reading up on biology, and will be more than willing to chat with you on A2K about it.
Those interested in the current state of evolutionary theory might learn much from Capra "The Web of Life" in which he discusses recent developments the "non-mechanistic" view of evolution. However, what any of this has to do with "forgivness and repentence" escapes me !
micah wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:
And I suppose you will tell us how you know there is a God -- and how you know what that god has stamped and what it has stamped it on????
Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handywork.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Ahhhh...the Bible tells you so.
And you are willing to base all this nonsense you spout on your blind acceptance that the Bible tells the truth.
Tsk, tsk!
Quote:Frank Apisa wrote:
I am well enough acquainted with the Bible to know that no less a personage than Jesus Christ himself is quoted as saying:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff
Stoning homosexuals is part of the law. Jesus says it still stands.
well....lets take a closer look...
How did Jesus fulfill the law? In his personal life He fulfilled all the demands of the law by living a sinlessly perfect life under it (Galatians 4:4; John 8:46; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:21-22). He also fulfilled the prophecies of the law concerning Christ (John 5:39; Acts 3:18-24; 13:29; 2 Peter 1:19) and the types of the law (Hebrews 8:4-5; Luke 24:44-47). By preparing the Jews for the coming of Christ, the law fulfilled its purpose in Him (Galatians 3:19-25). Finally, the righteousness before God which was the purpose of the law but which it could not give is fulfilled in Christ (Romans 8:3-4; 10:4-10). Having been fulfilled, the law has served its purpose.
Jesus came to pay the debt to law, a debt that man could not pay. Colossians 2:14 teaches that Christ's death "cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Thus Christ in His death for all mankind satisfied the requirements of the Law. Those who are in Christ are no longer bound by such; our debt has been fully paid.
Following the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, the inspired apostles taught that the Law of Moses was no longer in effect. In Romans 7:4, Paul wrote, "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God." In v6 he said, "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."
In Galations 3:24-25, Paul said, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." In Ephesians 2:14-15, he said that Christ "broke down the barrier of the dividing wall (between Jews and Gentiles) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances."
In 2 Corinthians 3:6, Paul spoke of the Law as "the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones" and as a "ministry of condemnation". He referred to such as "that which fades away" and "the old covenant. Paul said we are "servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
Finally, consider the letter to the Hebrews, the very subject of which is a comparison of the old and new covenants. The writer said in 1:1-2: "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son." The inspired writer then, in the remainder of the letter, explains that the way of Christ is far superior to the Old Law of Moses.
Hebrews 7:11 speaks of Christ as another priest who would not be needed "if perfection is through the Levitical priesthood." But since such was not possible, "of necessity there takes place a change of law also" (v12). V18 speaks of "setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness." V22 says that Christ then is the "guarantee of a better covenant."
Hebrews 8:6-7 states that Christ "is the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second." Then in v13 it says, "When He said, A new covenant, He has made the first obsolete." Hebrews 9:1 and 9:18 speaks of the "first covenant" compared to the "new covenant" in 9:15 and 12:24. Hebrews 10:1 says that the Law was simply a "shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things." 10:9 says, "He takes away the first in order to establish the second."
Two things:
One, either you neglected to point out where "Heaven and Earth have passed away" -- or you realized your arguments were nonsense and simply avoided dealing with it.
Two, you quoted Paul as to why the words of Jesus are not to be taken seriously.
Why would you do that?
And please, just because you blindly accept the Bible does not mean that the rest of us are so naive and superstitious. How about making some arguments about how you know all this stuff you are purporting to know that are outside that myopic mindset.
micah wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:Yeah, he was a good Joe. But the god of the Bible most assuredly does tell us how and when to slaughter our enemies.
Judgement is Gods'......God is slow to anger.......logically, he can be angered....God created men and he can destroy them according to his will.
perks ya get for being God....
only he knows, but perhaps those souls will be with God in heaven...
Could be....along with all the many babies and children the barbarian slaughtered also.
But this posting is an improvement. Earlier you avoided answering this issue by proclaiming that "Jesus pleads with us to love our enemies."
Now that you realized that doesn't work -- you are at least making an attempt to justify the barbarity of the god of the Bible.
I think there is hope for you -- and that has nothing to do with your ideas of Heaven. :wink:
micah wrote:so...you're just unable to graps the concept i presented?
ok.......just so you know....with that logic nothing is right or wrong, and you all think killing innocent babies and raping women is fine and dandy...even if you won't admit it...
Well...apparently without your god to tell you not to rape and pillage, apparently you would be doing both those things.
We agnostics and atheists have no god to tell us not to rape or pillage -- and we are not doing it.
I guess that shows that we are just better folks than you all!
Dys, did those fortune cookie lucky numbers happen to have come up on that day's lottery results? If so, that's all the proof I need!
micah, if one has developed an internal system of ethics, one knows that raping women and killing babies is wrong on humanitarian and social grounds regardless of any laws or divinely ordained rules. But if you have no internal ethics and your priests tell you that God wants you to rape women and kill babies (as he did several times in the Old Testament), what grounds do you have for refusing to do so?
micah wrote:How did Jesus fulfill the law? In his personal life He fulfilled all the demands of the law by living a sinlessly perfect life under it
What
possible definition of sinning does not include breaking the ten commandments??? Jesus violated not one but
four of them, and condoned violations of others.
"Thou shalt have no gods before me." Jesus put himself before God when he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6).
"Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy." Jesus and his disciples plucked and ate corn on the sabbath and when confronted about it Jesus said, "The sabbath was made for men and not men for the sabbath" (Mark 2:23-28). They also ate with unwashed hands. (Mark 7:1-4)
"Honor your father and mother." Jesus scorned and publicly humiliated his mother (Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:19-21, Luke 11:27-28, John 2:3-4) Jesus said, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26) I challenge you to find anything that he did or said to honor either his earthly father or his mother, other than turning her over to a disciple on the cross.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness (lie)." Jesus said he wasn't going to the feast and then as soon as the others left, he went to the feast in secret. (John 7:8-10) Jesus promised to return but didn't, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." (Mark 9:1)
fresco wrote:Those interested in the current state of evolutionary theory might learn much from Capra "The Web of Life" in which he discusses recent developments the "non-mechanistic" view of evolution. However, what any of this has to do with "forgivness and repentence" escapes me !
I think anyone wanting to know about science should start with science and not philosophy. But that sounds like an interesting book.
We were talking about "evil" in nature, and I pointed out the need for self-interest in evolution vs. need for societal interest.
Then micah made some posts showing his limitless bible/chuch/cult response knowledge and that he knew absolutely nothing about evolution or how it worked, which is why I brought up actually reading the source material - the best way to learn about it.
Right on Frank and Terry, Right on.
"Terry
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:56 pm Post subject:
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micah, if one has developed an internal system of ethics, one knows that raping women and killing babies is wrong on humanitarian and social grounds regardless of any laws or divinely ordained rules. But if you have no internal ethics and your priests tell you that God wants you to rape women and kill babies (as he did several times in the Old Testament), what grounds do you have for refusing to do so?"
I hate to think. That has been done in the name of the bible (and probably the old testament, who knows) but I hate to think what would happen if it actually -said- it, especailly with the fanatics.
"Well...apparently without your god to tell you not to rape and pillage, apparently you would be doing both those things.
We agnostics and atheists have no god to tell us not to rape or pillage -- and we are not doing it.
I guess that shows that we are just better folks than you all!"
I think I might have to agree with you Frank! Sometimes I also wonder about people who seemingly admit to having ABSOLUTELY NO morals without an old textbook on the subject.
Frank Apisa wrote:One, either you neglected to point out where "Heaven and Earth have passed away" -- or you realized your arguments were nonsense and simply avoided dealing with it.
sorry, i have no idea what you're talking about here...
Frank Apisa wrote:
Two, you quoted Paul as to why the words of Jesus are not to be taken seriously.
where EXACTLY did i say that???
Frank Apisa wrote:How about making some arguments about how you know all this stuff you are purporting to know that are outside that myopic mindset.
i have done so in other threads and you know it...
Frank Apisa wrote:Earlier you avoided answering this issue by proclaiming that "Jesus pleads with us to love our enemies."
i found it to be an appropriate response...it was quite an ignorant question in the first place...anyone with a decent knowledge of the bible understands the absurdity of the question..
Frank Apisa wrote:micah wrote:so...you're just unable to graps the concept i presented?
ok.......just so you know....with that logic nothing is right or wrong, and you all think killing innocent babies and raping women is fine and dandy...even if you won't admit it...
Well...apparently without your god to tell you not to rape and pillage, apparently you would be doing both those things.
We agnostics and atheists have no god to tell us not to rape or pillage -- and we are not doing it.
I guess that shows that we are just better folks than you all!
i say again, (now the third time)
normal people would not do deplorable things....but, some poeple do deplorable things.....viewing this fact through the lense of 'nature' (with no external GUIDELINE) "right' and 'wrong' lose relevence and those deplorable acts become 'natural/natural'.....
Phoenix32890 wrote:Quote:We agnostics and atheists have no god to tell us not to rape or pillage -- and we are not doing it.
I guess that shows that we are just better folks than you all!
Right on target, Frank!
and once more for you too!
normal people would not do deplorable things....but, some poeple do deplorable things.....viewing this fact through the lense of 'nature' (with no external GUIDELINE) "right' and 'wrong' lose relevence and those deplorable acts become 'natural/natural'.....
Terry wrote:God wants you to rape women and kill babies (as he did several times in the Old Testament)
please show me where God commands or even suggests to anyone to rape women??
Terry wrote:
"Thou shalt have no gods before me." Jesus put himself before God when he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6).
wow....i'm sorry, but you have a VERY strange view on these things...
Jesus IS God.....
you have only shown that you have ZERO understanding of scripture and ZERO ability to interpret scripture....keep trying...
"right" and wrong" are arbitrary and capricious, depending on who is "righted" or "wronged." from the point of view of a tapeworm, man was created by God to serve the appetite of the tapeworm. "Right" for the tapeworm but "wrong" for the man.
Micah, you don't seem to have any knowledge of formal discussion or debate. You are supposed to provide evidence backing up your answers (you do this with quotes from the bible, but as I pointed out, bible quotes are not evidence for anything other than how to interpret the bible.)
Your views on nature make no sense, the way you state them make no sense. You seem to have no formal grounding in logic, but still strongly feel the things you say make sense. And when people question these things, you spew out more bible quotes or say that we are incompetent in some way or that you clearly explained it somewhere else... It's like your in a tennis match and every time the ball comes to you you miss it and blame it on your opponent.
Even your goals do not seem consistent. You started out convinced of showing everyone the way of g-d, but in another thread you said you wanted people to challenge/correct your beliefs. You also said no one had challenged them - which leads me to believe you have not been listening or comprehending.
I am assuming that you are either very young in a religious family, or a cultist (as you seem to have no knowledge other than biblical knowledge, as if filtered/restrained.) In fact, your biblical knowledge does not even comply with the other Christians on the board, and you do not quote your "biblical" sources.
So, if you want to debate, follow logical guidelines. I also suggest taking some time to learn things about the world you live in (without having every thought and belief stemming form the bible.) There is a whole world around you.
Here are some debate guidelines
i have posted evidence...here is ONE example:
am i really to believe the prophecies re: Jesus were 'Lucky'??? here are some:
1. The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger
Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:
A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem
Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod...
3. The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah
Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) says:
This passage talks about a ruler coming from the Tribe of Judah, one whose rule will be all-powerful:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."
New Testament (Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16):
Here you'll find a list of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel).
4. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a colt
Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) says:
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
New Testament (Luke 19:35-37) says:
They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen
5. The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend
Old Testament (Psalms 41:9) says:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
New Testament (Matthew 26:47-50) says:
While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.
6. The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12) says:
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
New Testament (Matthew 26:14-15) says:
Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
7. The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten
Old Testament (Isaiah 50:6) says:
I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
New Testament (Matthew 26:67-68) says:
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"
8. The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies
Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5) says:
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
New Testament (Matthew 27:26) says:
Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.
9. The Messiah would be silent before His accusers
Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7) says:
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
New Testament (Matthew 27:12-14) says:
When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor.
10. The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) says:
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.
11. The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced
Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:
Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
12. The Messiah would be crucified with thieves
Old Testament (Isaiah 53:12) says:
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
New Testament (Matthew 27:38) says:
Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.
Now what do you suppose the odds are for these twelve prophecies being fulfilled in one man's life? What are the odds of Jesus being born in Bethlehem, a little town in the midst of hundreds of towns and cities in Israel?
The prophecy of Jesus having his hands and feet pierced was written hundreds of years before the Roman Empire invented crucifixion as a form of execution.
Who would believe a King would ride into a great city on the back of an donkey? Who else would be silent and not speak a word in his own defense, after being beaten, spit upon, and having the hairs of his beard plucked from his cheeks?
The prophecy that Jesus would be born into a family from the tribe of Judah is a 12-to-1 shot because there are 12 tribes of Israel. But, as Christian scholar Grant Jeffrey figured out, for all these prophecies to come true in one man's life would be 1 chance in 10 billion times a billion. And, there are many more Bible prophecies about a Messiah that have been fulfilled by Jesus, and we have only listed 12 of those prophecies here.
