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Mayor Bloomberg proposes super-sized soda ban

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 12:40 pm
@firefly,
If there was not a demand for such sizes the sellers would stop offering them no government ban needed and if there was a demand for another size it would be offer in a short time frame.

But I can not wait to see what will be next such as what can go into pizzas or if a super size pizzas will be allow to be sold.

How about donuts no two for one sales or a free coffee with them? No buy one dozen for the price of two sales?

There is no end to the silliness that government will get involved in if this stand and once more this is an appointed board on top of it so the 60 percents of the NY city voters who disagree over this can not go after them directly.
tsarstepan
 
  3  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 12:58 pm
@BillRM,
Your ad nauseum use of the 60% poll results is kind of off kilter. You don't live in NYC so you don't get the local news. A lot of people don't support the policy NOT because it's government restriction against choice. In fact, in many ask the public interviews here on local media (TV and radio), people are rejecting the policy because its seriously flawed and unworkable. They are however appreciative of the attempt to control the obesity epidemic via the soda size message.

Apparently you haven't been really reading my thread after all. That's my personal take on this whole shebang. That's the opinion of a great deal of those in that 60% poll. We New Yorkers aren't just mindless libertarian drones who see any government intervention as a movement to stifle all that is freedom.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 01:23 pm
@tsarstepan,
Quote:
We New Yorkers aren't just mindless libertarian drones who see any government intervention as a movement to stifle all that is freedom.


Well if New Yorkers as a class is eager to have their city government protecting them from themselves and their own decisions that is surely not the city and a people that I remember dealing with when I used to live in New Jersey and visited the city as often as possible.

Of course that was many decades ago so maybe the New York citizens had change from one of the most independent minded groups of people on earth to something a great deal less such as the average citizen of the state of California.

tsarstepan
 
  3  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 01:27 pm
@BillRM,
Of course we could all go back to living in lead painted houses made of pure asbestos walls. Drink tap water laced with arsenic and other pollutants AKA the libertarian wet dream of a completely government regulation free world. A place where schools exist for the uberwealthy as all public schools have gone privatized and fall under the realm of the so called free market.

You're right. Government is evil and monstrously controlling. Who needs their help??
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 01:39 pm
@tsarstepan,
So having safe water and safe paint on your walls is of the same class as selling large cups of soda?

There is nothing wrong with having a large sugar soda or harmful to your health for that matter if you do not decide to make such drinks a common part of your diet and are in normal health.

That is hardly the case concerning unsafe water or having lead paint on your walls nor do I know of a public demand for having unsafe water or lead paint for that matter.

Come on you can do better then that.



firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 03:35 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with having a large sugar soda or harmful to your health for that matter if you do not decide to make such drinks a common part of your diet and are in normal health.

There is nothing wrong with having a large sugary soda once in a while.

And a 16 oz serving, which would be the new size limit, is a large soda--it's 2 cups worth of soda.

A 32 oz glass of soda, or a 48 oz glass, as a single serving, isn't "large" it's crazy--and it's an indication of how sellers have distorted our notions of portion size.

But, if people want, need, or crave, more than 16 oz, they can just order two, or three. That's the point you seem to be missing.

The tobacco industry used to tell us smoking was good for our health--they featured doctors in cigarette ads. We didn't ban cigarettes, but we did put warnings on the pack, and banned cigarette ads on TV and radio to try to limit promotion.

The City isn't banning soda either, but it is trying to curb sellers' promotion of excessive quantities, by limiting the maximum portion size of a single serving, and that isn't all that different from the ban on cigarette advertising--both are attempts to limit promotion of something harmful to public health. Soda has just about as much nutritional value as cigarettes, and the harmful effects of excessive sugar, certainly the amounts in those mega-sized sodas, have already become cause for concern.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.html?pagewanted=all.

And a 48 oz, 32 oz, or even 24 oz, glass of soda is an excessive amount of sugar for a single serving. Given the crisis with obesity, as a health problem, and economic problem, in NYC, the City is right to try to restrict the amount of soda offered as a single serving size. The sellers won't undertake voluntary measures in that direction, and that includes most fast food chains, or movie theaters, or arenas, because their interests tend to run counter to public health interests. So, some government regulation of soda portion size is not an inappropriate move by the government. And consumers are still free to make all the unwise choices they want to, simply by buying more than one of those 16 oz drinks.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 04:00 pm
@firefly,
Dear once more the city/mayor think that by interfering with being able to order a large drink that people will not go to the extra step of carrying around two smaller cups of soda or getting a refill and if that is not the thinking then there would be zero point over having such a ban in the first place.

No one however was ever force to order the larger drinks and was more then free to order the smaller sizes ones before the ban. You however are complaining that businesses will not of their own free will stop offering what a section of their customers wish to buy and of course no businessman in his right mind would do so. Unlike the city government businessmen know that they are not the parents of their customers.

So for all your dodging the city or an non-elected board of the city government is interfering with the wishes of some if it citizens that do wish for a larger size helping of soda.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 04:11 pm
What I can't believe is that anyone supports this ridiculous law.

Some of you may welcome the government's subsititution as your mother, but most of us do not.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 04:40 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
This thread has given me some great ideas for sub-plots in the dystopian novel I may someday write Smile
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 04:41 pm
@Irishk,
Have you read "Flashback" by Dan Simmons?
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 04:44 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
No, but I just looked it up on amazon, so it's going on my list!
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 04:55 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Dear once more the city/mayor think that by interfering with being able to order a large drink that people will not go to the extra step of carrying around two smaller cups of soda or getting a refill and if that is not the thinking then there would be zero point over having such a ban in the first place.

You just don't get it.

Bloomberg isn't trying to interfere with anyone's desire, or ability, to drink as much soda as they want. And the serving size restriction, to 16 oz, won't stop anyone from drinking as much soda as they want. People can still order, or buy, as much soda as they want to drink.

You don't even understand the initiative--it's not really a "ban".
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 05:03 pm
@firefly,
I understand the ban just fine dear and no one before the ban was forcing the large sizes drinks down citizens throats however they was ordering them of their own free will and paying for them and drinking them of their own free will.

You was free also to order and paid for smaller sizes if they wish to have smaller sizes.

This is to interfere with the wishes of adults in the hope that people will say the hell with it I am not going to be carrying around two cups to get the amount I desire so I will settle for half the amount I wished to buy.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 06:31 pm
There is a very bad science fiction movie by the name of the Demolition Man where Sylvester Stallone from our time period found himself in the kind of future society that the good mayor of NY and Firefly would wish us to live in.

No crime until the unfreezing of a very bad guy and fines for cursing anywhere and other big mother government examples.

Anything that is not good for you is illegal such as coffee, alcohol, meat, contact sports and no doubt big soft drinks.



0 Replies
 
roger
 
  3  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 06:36 pm
@firefly,
If there is a limit on the size you can buy, it is a ban on larger sizes. If larger sizes are banned, it's a ban.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 07:19 pm
@BillRM,
You keep talking about "large" sizes--this initiative is aimed at restricting super-sized, and mega-sized individual portions, not what anyone would reasonably consider "large".
Quote:
This is to interfere with the wishes of adults in the hope that people will say the hell with it I am not going to be carrying around two cups to get the amount I desire so I will settle for half the amount I wished to buy.

Well, if that happens, that's the consumer's choice. But no one will stop them from buying more than one cup.

And buying less is what people may already do in places that only sell 12 oz or 16 oz cups of soda, if they don't want to carry more than one. Not all venues even sell 24, or 32, or 48 oz cups of soda now. People's range of choices, including size choices, is already limited by what food vendors offer to them. NYC food vendors don't all offer these super-sized or mega-sized portions--it's mainly the fast food chains.

This new regulation may prompt manufacuturers to offer 16 oz bottles of soda, rather than, or in addition to, the 20 oz bottles they now offer, if they want their bottled product available for sale by the food service vendors covered by this regulation. And that may also help to fight obesity.
Quote:
"[Sugary drinks are] the largest single driver of the obesity epidemic," said New York City Health Commissioner Dr. Thomas Farley said. "It is the largest source of added sugars to our diet."

The math behind the ban is simple:

A 16-ounce Coke has 200 calories.

A 20-ounce Coke has 240 calories, or about 30 more than a Hershey bar.

If you drink a soda per day — as do 46 percent of Bronx residents, according to one recent Health Department survey — choosing the 16-ounce bottle rather than the 20-ounce would save you 14,600 calories a year, or the equivalent of 70 Hershey bars. That is enough to add about four pounds of fat to a person's body.
http://www.towleroad.com/2012/09/nyc-passes-big-gulp-ban.html


Consumers aren't always able to accurately perceive amounts.
Quote:
The average person makes more than 200 decisions about food every day, and most of the time isn't even aware of it. We may take a stand each morning when it comes to ordering a tall, nonfat, no-foam latte, but for the most part, we tend to consume what's put in front of us. When we eat out, everything from a restaurant's lighting to the menu design to the size of the plate or cup influences how much we eat and drink.

But when Mayor Michael Bloomberg proposed a ban on supersize soft drinks in New York last month, the restaurant and beverage industries argued that people are in control of what they consume. "We trust our customers to make the choices that are best for them," McDonald's tweeted.

Recently, Pierre Chandon, a French marketing professor and visiting Harvard Business School scholar, decided to test the idea that consumers know what's best for them. He asked 294 people to estimate - using photos of a 6.5-ounce bottle (the standard for decades), a 12-ounce can or a 12-ounce cup as benchmarks - how much liquid was in a range of cups, starting at 12 ounces all the way up to a 50-ounce "Double Gulp." While it sounds simple, respondents consistently guessed wrong, assuming that the larger cups held about 20 percent to 40 percent less liquid than they actually did. Dozens of other studies, using jelly beans, popcorn, ice cream and alcoholic drinks, have also shown that consumers can't be depended on to perceive serving sizes accurately.

The reason comes down to the fact that the human brain has a surprisingly tough time with geometry and often can't accurately gauge when an object has doubled or even tripled in size. It's even trickier when the object is a wide-mouth cup, larger on the top than the bottom. "We tend to underestimate the increase in the size of any object," said Professor Chandon, director of the Insead Social Science Research Center in Paris. "When you double the size of something, it really looks just 50 to 70 percent bigger, not twice as big."
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/how-can-a-big-gulp-look-so-small/


And the new serving size limitation only affects those food service vendors already subject to NYC Board of Health regulations. There are plenty of places that sell mega-sized drinks, like 7-Eleven, that aren't under the Board of Health authority, and they'll go on selling those gigantic sized drinks.

This isn't really a law, and it isn't really a soda ban. It's a Board of Health regulation, and it only affects those food service vendors already subject to Board of Health regulations. And the reason for the regulation is a matter of public health.





firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 07:40 pm
I found this interesting...
Quote:
Too Big to Chug: How Our Sodas Got So Huge
Our love affair with soda has led to outrageously supersized drink sizes.
By Azeen Ghorayshi
Jun. 25, 2012

http://mjcdn.motherjones.com/preset_51/biggest-big-gulps-resized-watermarked-final.jpg
When McDonald's execs first struck up their lucrative business partnership with the Coca-Cola Company in 1955, they were thinking small—literally. At the time, the only size of the beverage available forpurchase was a measly 7-ounce cup. But by 1994, America's classic burger joint was offering a fountain drink size six times bigger.
.
And that's not even the worst of it. Franchises like 7-Eleven, Arco, and the unfortunately named Midwestern chain Kum & Go have all offered drinks upwards of 85 ounces. (To put this in perspective, this is around three times the capacity of a normal human stomach.) Studies have shown that consumers have a hard time gauging sizes properly, so as fountain drinks continue to get bigger and bigger, it's less and less likely that we're able to make informed choices

But how did this problem get so big in the first place? Here's a look at how super sizes became the status quo.
■1767: Joseph Priestley invents carbonated water after suspending a bowl of water above a beer vat. In 1772 Priestley publishes a paper on his findings entitled "Directions for Impregnating Water with Fixed Air."
■1819: Samuel Fahnenstock files a patent for the first ever soda fountain.
■1886: John S. Pemberton, a pharmacist in Atlanta, invents Coca-Cola. That year, he sells an average of nine drinks a day—today, the Coca-Cola Company sells around 1.7 billion beverages daily.
■1955: McDonald's forms an official partnership with Coca-Cola, offering just a single 7-ounce size fountain drink (PDF).
■1955: The Coca-Cola Company introduces the first king-size bottles in the United States. In addition to the standard 6.5-ounce bottles, shoppers can now buy Coke in 10-, 12-, 16-, and 26-ounce bottles.
■1980: 7-Eleven starts selling the 32-ounce Big Gulp. Ads run the slogan, "7-Eleven's Big Gulp gives you another kind of freedom: freedom of choice."
■1986: 7-Eleven follows up its success with a 44-ounce Super Big Gulp fountain drink.
■1988: McDonald's launches its Super Summer Size meals, available for a limited time only.
■1989: 7-Eleven rolls out the Double Gulp, a staggering 64 ounces of soda.
■1993: McDonald's launches another summer Super Size exclusive, this time called Dino Size as a tie-in to the film release of Jurassic Park. "Catch 'em quick—before they're extinct!"
■1994: Mickey D's gives Super Size meals a permanent spot on its menu. The fries are three times the size of the original 1950s serving, while the drink is six times bigger than its predecessor.
■1995: Wendy's introduces its version of super sizing with the 42-ounce Great Biggie, described as a "river of icy cold enjoyment."
http://www.motherjones.com/files/images/supersizing--downsizing-watermarked.jpg
■2001: Burger King introduces "King size" fries and 42-ounce sodas as part of its new Value Meals.
■2003: In the first suit of its kind, Pelman vs. McDonald's Corp. alleges that the fast-food chain knowingly failed to warn consumers that its products lead to obesity, and that it deceptively marketed food products "that were physically and psychologically addictive." The plaintiffs are two girls aged 19 and 14, who weigh 270 and 170 pounds, respectively. The Manhattan District Court judge tosses the case, citing individual responsibility. This spurs a new class of litigation dubbed "McLawsuits."
■2004: Spurred by the Pelman case, Morgan Spurlock films Super Size Me. Spurlock eats and drinks at McDonald's three times a day for a 30-day period, making sure to order everything on the menu at least once. He gains 25 pounds and develops serious health issues.
■2004: Due to intensifying public scrutiny over fast food chains, McDonald's drops the 42-ounce Super Size fountain drink as part of its new "healthy lifestyle initiative."
http://www.motherjones.com/files/images/usa-v-japan.jpg
■2006: Wendy's does away with its Biggie and Great Biggie portions, but in name only—instead, the 32 and 42 ounce drinks are the new medium and large.
■2006: 7-Eleven releases its Team Gulp, a gallon jug for soda.
■2007: After a huge public-relations sweep (and a resulting quadrupling of stock prices), McDonald's again offers a summertime-only promotional jumbo drink. Staying away from the Super Size trademark, the new 42-ounce drink is called the Hugo.
■2011: KFC introduces a drink so big that it has a bucket handle to carry it. In what can only be a cruel joke on humankind, for every Mega Jug purchased, KFC promises it will donate $1 to the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation.
■May 2012: Michael Bloomberg, the mayor of New York City, proposes a ban on sugary drinks exceeding 16 ounces. Days later, the Center for Consumer Freedom, a nonprofit backed by the fast-food industry, buys a full page ad in the Sunday New York Times: "New Yorkers need a Mayor, not a Nanny."
■September 2012: A second group, heavily bankrolled by the food and beverage industry, says it has collected some 240,000 pledges of support for its campaign to defeat Bloomberg's proposed ban on oversize sodas. Nevertheless, the New York City board of health votes 8-0 (with one abstention) to uphold it. "NYC’s new sugary drink policy is the single biggest step any gov't has taken to curb obesity," Bloomberg tweeted after the vote. "It will help save lives."

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/06/supersize-biggest-sodas-mcdonalds-big-gulp-chart

BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 09:47 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You keep talking about "large" sizes--this initiative is aimed at restricting super-sized, and mega-sized individual portions, not what anyone would reasonably consider "large".


If it was a bathtub full of sugar and water it would be beside the point as it is it a ban on a size of soda servings that at least a certain percents of the population happen to wish to buy by big mother type government.

Quote:
This isn't really a law, and it isn't really a soda ban. It's a Board of Health regulation, and it only affects those food service vendors already subject to Board of Health regulations. And the reason for the regulation is a matter of public health.


Regulations at all level of government are worst then laws as they had the same force as law but is not enacted by people that the voters can normally directly fired.

Second it is a ban on the serving size that you can buy so it is a ban on soda sizes containers so you are once more playing word games.

Second the matter is not public health it is big mother kind of government first small step into taking over our lives.

I will take care of my own damn health thank you very must and I do not grant my own doctor the right to make health decisions for me let alone a big mother form of government.

There are three people on the planet with the right other then myself to make health decisions in my place and only if I am not able to do so at the time.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 09:58 pm
@firefly,
Next if people did not wish to buy the sizes of drink being offer they would stop being offer. No big mother government call for.

When I go to the movies I buy the small bag of popcorn shamefully with butter and the small size diet drink as they do not force you to buy super size of either and once more if a certain percent of movie going public did not wish to go super size that size would not be offer for long for either popcorn or drinks.

Oh at McDonald' I buy the senior drink once more diet and refill it as often as I care to but if others wish to do otherwise that should be their right.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 10:17 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Second it is a ban on the serving size that you can buy

But it's not a city-wide ban.

You will still be able to buy these mega-sized drinks within New York City.
Quote:
Second the matter is not public health it is big mother kind of government first small step into taking over our lives.

You don't think the government's, already involved in your life, and has been involved in your life--and protecting your health, by having all sorts of regulations--for a very, very long time?
Quote:
Regulations at all level of government are worst then laws as they had the same force as law but is not enacted by people that the voters can normally directly fired.

Mayors are voted into office. A new mayor can appoint a new Board of Health.

And this regulation can be legally challenged in court--and the food and beverage industry has vowed to do that. That's who's most opposed to the regulation.

As tsar already told you,
Quote:
You don't live in NYC so you don't get the local news. A lot of people don't support the policy NOT because it's government restriction against choice. In fact, in many ask the public interviews here on local media (TV and radio), people are rejecting the policy because its seriously flawed and unworkable. They are however appreciative of the attempt to control the obesity epidemic via the soda size message....
We New Yorkers aren't just mindless libertarian drones who see any government intervention as a movement to stifle all that is freedom.


Do you even acknowledge that the extemely high obesity rate, particularly in New York City, constitutes a public health problem?
 

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