Florida's Stand your Ground law

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

The police shud NOT go around HOLDING people whom thay deem innocent of crime.

That is not the issue, David. Police should not deem someone innocent of crime after he reports "a real suspicious guy" to 9-1-1, after he starts chasing him, after the 9-1-1 operator suggests that he stop doing that, and after he chases him down and confronts him anyway. Then when this vigilante shoots the guy, only racist pigs would deem him innocent of crime. That is the issue here.

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Thomas has encapsulated precisely why the guy should be under arrest. David's apologetics for the shooter are pitiful.

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@jcboy,

jcboy wrote:

I wonder if this man still has his gun? When a policeman shoots someone his gun is removed and he is placed on administrative leave pending an investigation. I hope this murderer isn't armed and at home ready to kill again.

I was wondering the same thing. If he had been a cop I think he would have faced more consequences. Or at the very least, more scrutiny.

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Interesting re different years and places.
We used to have a great neighborhood watch group, had everyone's (or almost everyone's) phone numbers, met originally and subsequently with the police liaison, were adamantly not to take matters into our own hands.

Yeah, that's the standard from what I understand. I read somewhere that neighborhood watch guidelines say to not be armed and to not confront. My feeling is that he wanted to be a cop, but the closest he could get was self-appointed neighborhood watch dude.

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@snood,

Quote:

I heard they not only didn't immediately find and inform the young man's next-of-kin; but that they let the body lay for 3 days in the police morgue before letting anyone know about it. If that's true, that means his parents were searching for 3 days before they even knew what kept Trayvon from coming home on Feb 26th. The police had Trayvon's cell phone, so finding contacts and family members would not have been a problem.

I don't know if it was for 3 days, but yes, they tagged him as a John Doe and didn't even try to find his next of kin, despite having his cell phone. I don't know if this aspect is directly due to race -- it could be tangentially racial in that they took Zimmerman's account as gospel and assumed the kid was a criminal. I think that would be wrong even IF (and I don't believe for a moment it's possible) Trayvon had actually been a criminal. Everybody is someone's family and they deserve to know about their loved one's passing.

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An article I read said he was taken into custody and questioned right after the shooting and then released. It sounds like the police did what they were supposed to. A Grand Jury has been called and we will see what they say.

I don't understand why the Feds are involved. It almost sounds like another case of them over stepping their bounds.

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@FreeDuck,

I heard that they didn't have his cell phone -- that it sat there for several days until the girlfriend stepped forward saying she'd been talking to him and they went to look for it.

There is a lot of misinformation about what happened though so I don't know if that's true.

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Two weeks after Martin was shot David offered this thread to a2k:
http://able2know.org/topic/185805-1

Quote:

A federal judge in Maryland has ruled that state residents no longer
must show they have a good reason to carry handguns outside of
their homes,

He and Oralloy gleefully celebrate a great day in American jurisprudence.

Two weeks later two basketball players at a court up the street from me get in an argument. One guy goes to his car, retrieves a pistol and kills the other. There is speculation that the "Stand Your Ground" defense will be used.
I think I caught a glimpse of the future.

If I was snood and had a 6ft 3 140 lb son wearing a hoodie I wouldn't let him go out for fear he would be shot for "walking while black"

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@panzade,

Yep, this is one of the biggest issues with these laws. Should Zimmerman still be guilty of murder under this law? Yes. But the problem is most of the time the only other witness to what happened is dead, putting a pretty tough burden on prosecutors to prove that it wasn't self defense. I read in one of the articles that the police in Orlando refer all of these cases to the state's attorney, meaning they don't make an arrest. In another article (or the same on, not sure) a prosecutor was lamenting the fact that two rival gangs had a shootout and he couldn't prosecute any of them because they all claimed self defense.

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@boomerang,

I hadn't heard that but it could be true. Sounds like they never processed the area as a crime scene if that's the case, but I'm just speculating at this point.

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@CoastalRat,

CoastalRat wrote:

Quote:
At the point where he was instructed not to follow the boy, and did so anyway, he lost any claim to self defense.

I cannot believe it took this long for someone to point this out. By Florida law, Trayvon would have been on firmer legal ground shooting this idiot than this idiot had shooting him.

By law applied equally, you're right. But from what I've read, you have a much higher chance of having to tell it to a jury if you're black. If, after that 911 call, Trayvon had shot and killed Zimmerman there is no doubt that he would be behind bars right now and most likely already charged with murder.

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@FreeDuck,

Quote:

But the problem is most of the time the only other witness to what happened is dead, putting a pretty tough burden on prosecutors to prove that it wasn't self defense

That's how the case is playing out here.

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In this country, nobody should have to fear a simple walk to the corner store. Trayvon Martin deserves justice and I hope he gets it.

Poor Orlando. First Casey Anthony and now this. The entire eyes of the world will be on them once again. Hey, at least they are famous for something other than Mickey Mouse now.

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

There are multiple reports of Trayvon calling for help just before the gunshots.

So, according to U,
the "multiple reports" said:
"Hay, my name is TRAYVON -- didja get that? TRAYVON, and I want help!"

Mr. Zimmerman was in distress, when he was attacked by decedent, in the accepted vu of the police.
Maybe HE was calling for help.

DrewDad wrote:

I know that this whole event contradicts your whole narrative
about how it's good for society when people go around armed, but you're really grasping at straws, here.

Baloney!!! He who is in a predatory emergency
had damn well better have emergency equipment,
or he 'll be sorrry that he cannot control the situation.
YOUR filosofy is just: "cast your fate to the winds"
From that, I dissent.
I 'm glad that the Founders kept that jurisdiction out of the hands of government.

Incidentally, altho its true that I believe that society is better off
with all of its members being defensively well armed,
(unlike Hawkeye) I really don 't give a damn about society;
I care about freedom of the INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN of whom society is composed.

I defend the statute in question in the knowledge
that if a decent citizen waits too long to defend himself (or herself)
in a predatory emergence that delay might well cost him his life.
It remains imperative that the decent people (and even the bums)
freely defend themselves while there is still time and not delay in terror of government.

David

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@Baldimo,

Quote:

I don't understand why the Feds are involved. It almost sounds like another case of them over stepping their bounds.

Why do you think it is, Baldimo, that so many Americans are so ignorant?

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@jcboy,

jcboy wrote:

In this country, nobody should have to fear a simple walk to the corner store.
Trayvon Martin deserves justice and I hope he gets it.

Poor Orlando. First Casey Anthony and now this. The entire eyes of the world will be on them once again.
Hey, at least they are famous for something other than Mickey Mouse now.

I think that 's Kissimmee.

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@OmSigDAVID,

From the article I posted earlier:

Quote:

But Crump says three witnesses have come forward to say that it was Trayvon's yelling "help" just before the shooting.

But keep defending this asshole, m'kay? It really shows us who you are.

(FYI, the shooter was on the phone with 911, and it very much sounds like he mutters "******* coons" just before he confronts the kid. Keep on, David, thinking that he has every right to chase down and shoot someone who was just walking home from the store while talking to his girlfriend.)

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what do you think Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and his macho gun with, David? The bag of Skittles he was eating? Face it, this is what happens when you get unlimited right to carry and NO meaningful control of rogue idiots--an innocent kid shot. If you defend it, you have no place in a civil society, which is allegedly what the United States was meant to be. You're not upholding the vision of the Founding Fathers, you're betraying it.

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@Thomas,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

The police shud NOT go around HOLDING people whom thay deem innocent of crime.

Thomas wrote:

That is not the issue, David.

True that its NOT, Tom, because the police remained innocent
of incarcerating the fellow who defended himself, in this particular case.
Most of the time, police forces have even arrested guys that
shot criminals inside the victims' own houses.
In other words, thay took sides with the bad guy
and cost the victim $1,OOOs & $1,OOOs in lawyers' fees,
which is to say that the justice system that the victim finances
is far more financially disastrous than the criminal was to him.
Do u think that 's OK?? I don't.

Thomas wrote:

Police should not deem someone innocent of crime after he reports "a real suspicious guy" to 9-1-1,
after he starts chasing him, after the 9-1-1 operator suggests that he stop doing that,
and after he chases him down and confronts him anyway.

R u saying that the police have authority
to decide who can follow or confront whom, in America ??
I don 't think that thay do.
neither do 911 telefone operators

Thomas wrote:

Then when this vigilante shoots the guy,
only racist pigs would deem him innocent of crime. That is the issue here.

If u wanna bring up race,
then u shud be aware that a far greater percentage of blacks
falls victim to violent crime, than whites; i.e., the blacks more urgently NEED
their rights of self defense (usually from one another).

David

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@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

what do you think Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and his macho gun with, David? The bag of Skittles he was eating?

I have no way of knowing. I did not witness it; maybe a rock,
a piece of wood or any other debris in the area. Who knows?
I think I heard that Mr. Z was wounded.

MontereyJack wrote:

Face it, this is what happens when you get unlimited right to carry

We did not "get" that right, as u put it.
We always had it (as set forth in US v. CRUIKSHANK 92 US 542 [1875] ); we merely WITHHELD that jurisdiction from government
after we threw out the King of England.

MontereyJack wrote:

and NO meaningful control of rogue idiots--an innocent kid shot.

Admittedly, there IS less control in free countries.
I 'll stay here anyway.

MontereyJack wrote:

If you defend it, you have no place in a civil society, which is allegedly what the United States was meant to be.
You're not upholding the vision of the Founding Fathers, you're betraying it.

Hysteria is not taken seriously.

David

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Florida's Stand your Ground law

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