Florida's Stand your Ground law

@ehBeth,

For sure. And I think the outrage over that is justified (I've leant my voice to the outrage, including an early petition that helped get things rolling).

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Quote:

The dispatcher asks Zimmerman if he's chasing the individual. Zimmerman says yes. "We don't need you to do that," the dispatcher responds.

They left out Zimmerman's response, which was "OK".

He didn't take the advice of the dispatcher, though, and it's apparent later in the call when the dispatcher asks Zimmerman where he wants to meet with the police, "By the mail boxes?". "OK", says Zimmerman, but since he was continuing to follow Trayvon, he later tells the dispatcher to have the officers call him on his phone and he'll 'tell them where he's at'.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

If I get a fone call from a dispatcher ten minutes from now, ordering me around, I don 't believe that I 'll govern my choices by those commands. I 'm a freedom-loving fellow.

A bit of ridiculous rhetoric, David. 911 operators/dispatchers don't make phone calls, they are there to receive emergency calls and offer assistance. If we're lucky, most of us will only have to use the service once or twice in our entire lives.

But, it was George Zimmerman who generated the call and if he had no intention of following the advice of a trained dispatcher, we might want to know why.

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@sozobe,

Quote:

But yes, I'm reserving some judgment until we know a lot more than we know now.

What precisely is it that you would like cleared up, Sozobe?

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In the last day or two I've had a thought that I now think I was slow to pick up on.

I think neighborhood watch people going around armed with guns and following people they don't recognize are equivalent to neighborhood gangs, at least on a slippery slope to that. Neighborhood gangs have territorial sensibility. The mafia started out as protective early on.

Neighborhood watch, including any in gated communities, is not a militia.

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@snood,

The whole thing pretty much.

What actually happened, start to finish.

Since there is only one person involved who's still alive and since he has already shown that he'll change his story I don't know if it will be completely cleared up ever.

But I think there are still a lot of questions.

I hope it's clear that I'm saying that from what we know now, I think that Zimmerman a) should be charged with a crime and b) is more likely to be guilty than innocent of that crime. But that the Clementi case taught me that what we think we know now might be a fraction of what's actually pertinent to the case.

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@sozobe,

Zimmerman had as much right to carry a gun and confront this kid as the kid had a right to be there, so it remains to be seen what evidence of a crime exists. As of now we don't know of any.

EDIT: Zimmerman will have plenty of money so unlike most he will be able to defend himself against the state...there is about zero chance for the state to get a plea here, they will be forced to come up with evidence.

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@hawkeye10,

I'm sorry but I disagree. People do NOT have a right to carry guns and confront people in my neighborhood.

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hawkeye says:

Quote:

so it remains to be seen what evidence of a crime exists. As of now we don't know of any.

Excuse me? Trayvon was shot and killed.

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@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

hawkeye says:

Quote:
so it remains to be seen what evidence of a crime exists. As of now we don't know of any.

Excuse me? Trayvon was shot and killed.

To prove a crime you have to prove that his killing was not justified, the shooting in and of itself is not evidence of a crime. You might however be able to use bullet wound analysis to prove a crime. Your emotional outrage that an unarmed black young man is dead does not make his killer a criminal if you follow the law.

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@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

The whole thing pretty much.

What actually happened, start to finish.

Since there is only one person involved who's still alive and since he has already shown that he'll change his story I don't know if it will be completely cleared up ever.

But I think there are still a lot of questions.

I hope it's clear that I'm saying that from what we know now, I think that Zimmerman a) should be charged with a crime and b) is more likely to be guilty than innocent of that crime. But that the Clementi case taught me that what we think we know now might be a fraction of what's actually pertinent to the case.

Well, I'm unclear about what you're unclear about. But as long as your unclearness doesn't prevent you from agreeing that Zimmerman should be in jail awaiting trial right now, I don't guess we have any substantive contention.

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@snood,

How can you call for a trial when there is no evidence of a crime in the public space? There is a good reason why historically we have demanded that the state not press cases where the DA does not believe they have enough evidence to prove a crime. We should not be demanding that the state try to get a jury to bite on every alleged crime. Justice is at stake here.

BTW....on what grounds would you deny Zimmerman bail?

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NO Grand Jury in Trayvon Martin Case, Says Angela Corey

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@Irishk,

I read that news from a different source. I have to admit I'm not clear on the significance.

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@MontereyJack,

hawkeye says:

Quote:

so it remains to be seen what evidence of a crime exists. As of now we don't know of any.

MontereyJack wrote:

Excuse me? Trayvon was shot and killed.

There is no reason to believe that is legally improper.

David

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@roger,

roger wrote:

I read that news from a different source. I have to admit I'm not clear on the significance.

I'm not either, but I looked around a bit and found this from a CBS affiliate in Miami:

Quote:

Former U.S. Attorney Kendall Coffey told CBS4′s Gio Benitez that by not using a grand jury, prosecutors will probably not charge Zimmerman with a capital offense.

Additionally, lawyer Janet Johnson, who works in Corey’s jurisdiction, said grand jury are used on “all First Degree Murder cases.”

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@Irishk,

I caught the part about grand jury being required for a charge of first degree murder, but the actual specifications for first degree would have been just about impossible to demonstrate. Still, I'm left wondering if he will ever be charged with anything.

I do think the incident is going to have long term significance in regard to the neighborhood watch programs and gated communities. Like when gas prices start climbing, smaller cars start showing up. Not that there are not people who cannot afford the price, but they get tired of the knowing smiles when they dump over a hundred dollars into the old Hummer. Social pressure may work slowly, but can be pervasive.

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@roger,

Not in Flordia. But hopefully the feds will take a look at this loss of his rights to walk around in public without having some wanna be cop shoot him dead.

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@roger,

Quote:

Still, I'm left wondering if he will ever be charged with anything.

Understandable. Corey, in her statement about not using the Grand Jury, has said she's still investigating. I take that to mean that, while he won't be charged with first degree murder, he will be charged. Call it intuition. Or maybe wishful thinking.

There are just too many questions yet to be answered. I think she knows this, so I'm optimistic.

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@roger,

Yeah.

1 Reply

Florida's Stand your Ground law

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