Dr. Conrad Murray Found Guilty

What is that supposed to mean Beth and in what way does it contribute to this debate?

I suppose it will be applauded by those who think Mr Murray is guilty of involuntary manslaughter so it's a pretty safe way of reacting to my two posts, the first of which you have passed by for reasons of your own.

A mob will always applaud something which bolsters its own position no matter how ridiculous it is. Round 'em up girl.

there's no debate going on. you're talking to yourself as usual. pretending you're participating in a dialogue but not actually doing so. even OSD can do better most days.

You can't compare OSD's stuff with mine. YSMC. He comes from a position I can't possibly understand and how well he presents that position can only be judged by those who come from the same position or feel they should do.

To say there is no debate is plainly ridiculous. It is you who is not debating because I put up a post and you haven't debated with it but instead reverted to blustering as if viewers here will thereby not notice your omission. I have thus proved you are not debating and you have only asserted that I'm not.

That I am talking to myself is proved false by my posts causing reactions. Your post proves a dialogue exists. As do many others. If you want to write both parts in a dialogue you should be writing plays. I'm writing my part because nobody says I can't. Whether anybody is reading it or taking any notice of it is not my concern.

I am the last person in this world who is ever going to accept being addicted to drugs is excusable in any way, shape, manner or form. Ted Bundy considered himself rather artistic too and he had a real propensity for sadistic rape and murder. Can you imagine what he would have been like had he also been addicted to drugs?

MJ, especially with all the resources at hand, should have found a way to straighten himself out. If he let other people dictate to him when he'd sing, etc., I am sorry, but that was his fault. He chose drugs to deal with whatever demons he had. He CHOSE them.

None of that has any bearing whatsoever on the fact that Dr. Murray CHOSE to compromise medical ethics and in doing so, someone died and now Dr. Murry will have to pay his consequences just like MJ did. Fortunately for Dr. Murray, he'll more than likely live through his experience. MJ didn't.

I've never heard of Ted Bundy and have no idea whether what you say about him is true or not. But it is rather a crude manner of disposing of his character you have chosen to adopt.

Anybody can talk about somebody straightening themselves out when they not only have no idea of the pressures MJ was under but are incapable of even conceiving what it is like to be living with them 24 hours a day.

My longer post earlier today was an attempt to explain why medical ethics could have been adhered to at the time the Propofol was administered. The best interests of the patient in all the circumstance might have been the consideration rather than the instructions on the bottle which are there to reduce the liability of the manufacturer and those who administer the drug in hospitals and which always err on the side of caution.

The post seems to have passed by your understanding. There was no sense in any of the evidence I have heard that any other explanation for illness other than physical causes could be allowed. Which is a mighty claim. A pedantic materialist position which suits lawyers because they can hardly begin to deal with mental causes. The latter are simply asserted to be nutty.

I used "could have" and "might" merely to suggest a doubt. The defence seems to me to have played on the prosecution's own field. There must have been some resentment in the LA legal establishment at Dr Murray choosing an out of town lawyer to lead his defence.

No, the instructions on the bottle are to insure proper use of the drug, by whoever administers it. Every prescription I fill comes with that same sort of package insert because they are for the benefit of the patient who may self-administer it, or for any other other caretaker who may administer it--and those inserts contain instructions for use, contra-indications, precautions, and warnings. In the case of Propofol, a drug only intended for administration by physicians, the doctor is expected to heed such instructions, and certainly to be aware of them, to reduce the possibility of harm to the patient. Reducing the possibility of such harm does also reduce potential liability. But, not heeding the instructions, certainly does increase liability, and that's what happened to Conrad Murray--he was held liable for causing his patient's death--criminally liable.

I doubt that, but even if that were the case, I can't see it as of any relevance to the trial or verdict. And the co-counsel, Michael Flanagan, does practice in L.A.

This was a thankless case for a defense attorney because there was no strong defense that could have been mounted that could have excused Murray's negligent actions as a doctor, or sufficiently countered the prosecution case. They were left with the option of trying to blame Jackson for his own death, but they couldn't produce enough suspicion of that to raise reasonable doubt. So, to have to try such a weak case, in the glare of world wide publicity, and then, rather predictably, lose it, is not what most defense attorneys want to do. They get paid, sure, but it damages their professional image, not to mention their ego. When that verdict came in, Ed Chernoff looked positively crushed. He didn't even get himself together enough to deliver a decent argument in favor of Murray remaining on bail until sentencing.
And the intense fighting within the defense camp--between Chernoff and Flanagan, and Chernoff and Dr. White, stemmed from the lack of a decent defense they could all agree on. So, Chernoff and Flanagan fought over legal strategy with the prosecution medical witnesses, because there was no clear way they could discredit them, and they wound up not talking to each other the last two weeks of the trial. And when Chernoff and his chief medical expert witness, Dr White, are screaming at each other in a courthouse elevator, you know the case is not going well.
And, on top of that, Murray had given a long interview to the police and had said things in that interview that the prosecution was able to use against him at trial--and there was nothing the defense could counter that with. And allowing Murray to take the stand in his own defense would have been a total disaster--the prosecution would have demolished him.

Probably the least of Cheroff's problems, and stress, stemmed from the fact he was from out of town.

All the irrelevant stuff you keep bringing up, in defense of Murray, is not what can fly in a court of law during a trial. Murray's behavior, in more than one regard, was inexcusable conduct for a physician--he clearly violated his legal obligations to a patient--and the prosecution had a very strong case in favor of guilt. Since there was no good or strong defense strategy to raise reasonable doubt, Ed Chernoff was between a rock and a hard place, and that was his main problem.

I have just seen a 30 minute programme on ITV about insomnia.

Even mild cases produce serious (70 to 80%) reductions in ability to concentrate and energy levels as well as mood changes and weakening of the immune system caused by anxiety and depression. A word used to describe the state was "wretched".

And around 10 million Brits are suffering from it.

My conclusion from the sorry tale of woe is that the Propofol is given or the concerts are off. So all we are really concerned about is who was in position when the music stopped. Somebody would have been if I'm reading MJ's state correctly and nobody has disputed my reading. Everything else is the same except the name of the defendant.

It is interesting that my analysis gives MJ a noble death. A heroic attempt, failing as it turned out, to fulfill the expectations of his fans and those dependent on his performances.

It's obvious that both men knew the risks. If Dr Murray leaves he risks MJ dosing himself and if he then died Dr Murray blames himself for it for leaving his patient to his own devices and escapes the clutches of the lawyers. He could well think that his professional skill was better for his patient than that.

But I am making one. Belittle it how you will. I think it would have placed a doubt in at least one jurors mind and with three weeks to make it maybe all of them.



What were they screaming about is what matters now. Mr Chernoff was billeted in Mr Flanagan's home at the beginning.



So now we know that you are an ancillary in the medical industry which is something we didn't know before. But the "party line" is for the benefit of Mr and Mrs Average and not for somebody in MJ's state.

And don't forget that 25 mg of Propofol had become fairly routine and risks must have felt less and less to the point where MJ is faced with cancelling the concerts because of the instructions on the bottle. Or getting you lot in to cure his acute anxiety driven insomnia which renders his capacity to deliver in London less and less with every day that passes.

Do you seriously think that is an answer to the point I made? That you "doubt" it and you "can't see" its relevance as if that proves it wasn't relevant. You can't see a lot of things ff.

http://www.contactmusic.com/celebrity-videos/larry-king-out-and-abo

sorry about the ad.

In case it didn't play Mr King is asked for a comment on the case.

"I don't think he should have been remanded"

what? not at all?

"Not at all".

The quote by Jones is irrelevant to this court case. Also it begs the fact that a crime was STILL commited and negligence demonstrated. Whether or not there were 40 other criminally-inclined doctors that would line up has no bearing. If 40 doctors did that crime, they all should be prosecuted as that is the law.

Also, doctor didn't kill him and the court of law was not trying that case. Negligent homicide did occur and the doctor was negligent of his duties and that negligence contributed to his death. The legal difference escapes you.

The crime was still commited and was dispensed of in a court of law. Justice was served.

Rubbish mate. It was a feeding frenzy. There was no crime. There was no negligence. Justice is a game.

Headline here--ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANT GERMS ON THE RAMPAGE.

Do doctors negligently and recklessly prescribe antibiotics for commission? By the billion.

Nice thinking however no matter if every other doctor in the world had used misjudgments only Dr. Conrad reckless conduct let directly to MJ death.

End of subject............

Well blow then Bill.

I am sorry but all I see you do is defend the wrongs of others.

I'm an ancillary in the medical industry because I fill prescriptions for myself or members of my family?

By "fill" I mean I bring the prescription to the pharmacy and hand it to the pharmacist. And, when it runs out, I refill it. I'm not a pharmacist. But the pharmacist also fills the prescription.

Perhaps this is a difference in American usage of the word "fill" in that context. We do say, "I've got to fill a prescription," when we refer to taking a doctor's prescription to the pharmacy.

No that wasn't routine--at all. If you had really followed this trial, you'd know that Murray told the police he had been giving MJ nightly IV infusions of Propofol--Propofol by IV drip all night--which amounts to considerably more Propofol than a single 25mg injection--and he claimed he had administered the Propofol to MJ by IV every night until 3 days before MJ's death, when he suddenly decided to "wean him off it" which is why he switched and gave him a small amount by injection. So, the "routine" had been an all night IV drip of Propofol.

Dr. Murray's story about having switched to that 25mg injection that fatal day really was not credible. Other medical experts at the trial testified that such a very small amount of Propofol, given by injection, wouldn't have put MJ to sleep, as Murray claimed it had. And it strains credulity that if MJ had been pleading and begging for Propofol that fatal day, that Murray wouldn't have given him the usual IV drip--and that would also be consistent with your version of the situation. I don't think Murray ever gave MJ Propofol by injection, I think he always gave it to him by IV drip, including the day he died.
Murray was just lying when he spoke with the police.

And, in that documentary that was aired last week, Murray lied some more, this time contradicting what he himself had told the police in that long interview a few days after MJ's death. He told the police he left MJ alone for only 2 minutes while he went to the bathroom, but, in the documentary he admitted to being out of the room on his cell phone for 45 minutes, and in a place where he could not see or really hear MJ during that time.
I read on the internet today that the prosecutor may play part of that documentary at Murray's sentencing hearing to demonstrate that he does lie by showing that he has given contradictory versions of the events surrounding MJ's death at different times, and to use this in urging the judge to impose a longer sentence. It would certainly work against giving him probation because, if the man is such a liar, his probation officer couldn't trust anything he told him. We'll have to wait and see if the prosecutor takes that route.

And, in that documentary, Murray's reasons for not calling 911 for 20 minutes, and his reasons for not telling either the paramedics or the ER doctors that MJ had been given Propofol, were so lame they really weren't credible. The man is a liar. And not a very good liar. And his personal life and conduct, apart from his functioning as a physician, doesn't reflect well on his character or sense of responsibility either, if you've read anything about him, or even if you saw the three girlfriends of his that testified at the trial--and he was on the phone with those girlfriends while MJ was in his bed dying.

No one but an ethically compromised physician would have given up his medical practices and taken that sort of job with MJ, because he knew what he was being hired to do, and it involved an unethical departure from acceptable standards of medical care, as well as something that was totally out of his area of medical competence. He was arrogant enough to think he could manage the enormous risks, and he couldn't resist the money and the sharing of MJ's lifestyle, and thoughts about Jackson's welfare were definitely not at the top of the list of his priorities--and they still weren't at the top of his list when he delayed calling 911, or failed to tell those doing resuscitation efforts that MJ had been given Propofol. I had some sympathy for this man before the trial, but having seen the trial, as well as that self-serving documentary, I think he's a total sleaze.

I'm glad you think you are smarter than Murray's defense attorneys and that you think you could have made a better case for him than they did. But you're not able to do that even in this thread, no one is buying what you are trying to peddle.

And the case is over--he was convicted. And they don't have strong legal issues for an appeal, so it isn't likely this verdict will be overturned.