9
   

Dr. Conrad Murray Found Guilty

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 07:40 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Yeah--but what does it mean? No tackles in the NFL it seems to me if you are to be consistent. Don't NFL muck-a-mucks have a duty to protect players? Was NASA reckless?

I think the verdict is right but ridiculous. You're all hysterical about being superior persons focussed on this one thing. Nothing like hand-wringing bleeding-hearts milking the udder of human kindness and compassion to bring a nation to its knees.

You lot are not the Americans I was brought up to admire. And that's for sure.


That's pretty harsh. Who is hysterical? From what I see, we are a few people discussing a current event and giving our views on it.
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 08:14 pm
Why would he kill his own cash cow?

He said Jackson injected himself - again. What happened to that claim?

Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 08:20 pm
@PUNKEY,
I don't for a second think he was trying to kill Michael. He had given him the propofol for twenty nights before the fatal night so I'm sure he felt pretty confident nothing was going to happen on night 21.

Have you ever had surgery? I have. No way are you going to wake up from a propofol drip and inject yourself with anything. You would not be capable of doing it.

Even if there was a way, there is still he gave the medication outside of a hospital setting without emergency equipment and he left his patient, which you do not do, so he is culpable even if Michael could have injected himself.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 08:40 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Even if there was a way, there is still he gave the medication outside of a hospital setting without emergency equipment and he left his patient, which you do not do, so he is culpable even if Michael could have injected himself.


In total agreement for once.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 08:42 pm
@BillRM,
Laughing
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 05:51 am
It was a legal and media feeding frenzy. The vast bulk of medical errors are just given funerals.

Maybe MJ couldn't sleep because in live shows it is impossible to speed up the tape to make things look more energetic than aging and abused tissue can manage.

The same prosecutors were trying to get MJ banged up not so long ago. That was another feeding frenzy. So was the IMF chief business. Now it's Mr Cain. Prurience sells.

Mr Murray must have been a top-notch quack to land such a job. So now you've lost a top-notcher. Carted out in handcuffs by two highly paid goons. Excellent.

Like PUNKEY suggested. Doctor Murray is the very last person to risk killing MJ.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 06:09 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:
Well, the verdict just came in. Guilty of involuntary manslaughter. The judge would not let him be released until sentencing either. The judge said his behavior was wreckless and the community could be in harm's way. (Not his exact words). I am glad he is losing his license. No matter what, he never should have given Michael Jackson that propofol.

What do you think?
MJ shoud have received whatever drugs he wanted n was willing to buy.
This is true of everyone. America is supposed to be a free country.





David
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 06:44 am
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
I don't for a second think he was trying to kill Michael. He had given him the propofol for twenty nights before the fatal night so I'm sure he felt pretty confident nothing was going to happen on night 21.

Have you ever had surgery? I have. No way are you going to wake up from a propofol drip and inject yourself with anything. You would not be capable of doing it.

Even if there was a way, there is still he gave the medication outside of a hospital setting without emergency equipment and he left his patient, which you do not do, so he is culpable even if Michael could have injected himself.

Whereas I don't believe that Dr.Murray directly intended Jackson's death, as a physician he had to have known the dangers of the medication, including its addictive quality.

On the matter of the Propofol and IV drips. There are drips which come equipped with a button that the patient can press on their own. This is usually reserved for late stage terminal illness patients; but, the technology is there and Dr.Murray could have presented it to Mr.Jackson. Although the button press is usually regulated so as a patient cannot abuse it, there are 2 things to keep in mind. First, it can be fiddled with/adjusted/altered, which would allow the patient to keep pressing away until the bag was drained. Second, if it was set so Mr.Jackson could press it, let's say, every 4 hours, he could perhaps have pressed it the first time just moments after the initial injection by Dr.Murray.

As to your comments on post-surgery and abilities being so diminished that a person can't self administer a medication, I disagree. I've been through surgery several times and have been more than alert and capable enough to handle something as routine as an injection would be. As indicated earlier, if he had a button to press, then the task was even simpler.

Given that Mr.Jackson had been on various high level narcotics for quite some time, he'd also have been more adept at operating while in the float zone- you may have seen images/videos of drug addicts who while high have been able to wrap a tourniquet on their arm, and shoot up a second time even as they were in a state where they couldn't verbally or physically respond to anybody around them. Often these second doses lead to fatal overdoses.

At the end of it all, I wasn't in the courtroom, didn't hear all the testimony so I can't say what was said from both sides, what evidence was presented- the public only saw what the media allowed us to see, there's plenty we didn't see or hear about.
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 06:50 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

It was a legal and media feeding frenzy. The vast bulk of medical errors are just given funerals.

Maybe MJ couldn't sleep because in live shows it is impossible to speed up the tape to make things look more energetic than aging and abused tissue can manage.

The same prosecutors were trying to get MJ banged up not so long ago. That was another feeding frenzy. So was the IMF chief business. Now it's Mr Cain. Prurience sells.

Mr Murray must have been a top-notch quack to land such a job. So now you've lost a top-notcher. Carted out in handcuffs by two highly paid goons. Excellent.

Like PUNKEY suggested. Doctor Murray is the very last person to risk killing MJ.
Top notch doctors don't administer propofol outside of a hospital setting with a rigged up drip, no emergency equipment, and leave their patients.
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 06:51 am
@Sturgis,
I can't disagree with what you've said but according to the law, ethics, etc., the doctor was culpable because he administered the propofol outside of a hospital setting, etc.
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 06:59 am
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Top notch doctors don't administer propofol outside of a hospital setting with a rigged up drip, no emergency equipment, and leave their patients.

Apparently they do. Again, we don't have all the facts, all the paperwork which Dr.Murray may have filled out and presented to get the equipment for Mr. Jackson, how he may have cited "special circumstances" as a reasoning for allowing these things to be done away from a hospital. We do not know what was said and done or what wasn't, only bits and pieces and bits from the media. Even the best television coverage doesn't present every last detail.

Doctors are human and errors are made both in judgement and in action. Mistakes happen even in hospital settings, even in intensive care units.

The real tragedy here is that Dr.Murray got hit only because of who the patient was. If it had been some unknown, then like as not, nothing ever would have been done and the public never would have known about it..
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 07:24 am
@Sturgis,
Quote:
If it had been some unknown, then like as not, nothing ever would have been done and the public never would have known about it..


Sorry you logic is somewhat lacking as only a very important member of society would be able to set up getting treated in that very unwise manner.

No unknown would likely had met his end in this way.
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 08:15 am
@Sturgis,
Did you hear Dr. Murray's interview with the police? He pretty much hung himself. He admitted to all of it. He never denied giving any of the medication. He didn't deny he did not have emergency equipment available, he did not deny leaving his patient that should have been constantly monitored, and he did not deny it was at the very least, unusual, for a doctor to treat insominia in such a manner. He also admitted he knew Michael Jackson was addicted to drugs.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 08:16 am
@BillRM,
Correct. Money and association with celebrity led the Doctor astray.
But the "fans" won't want to think about that.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 08:19 am
@fresco,
Led the doctor astray? So he can be led astray with money but we won't hold him responsible for his bad decisions? That poor man. He's still alive. Michael Jackson isn't.

By the way, I have never been a fan of Michael Jackson.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 08:26 am
@Arella Mae,
Of course he's responsible ! (Maybe I've not been following the posts carefully).
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 08:39 am
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
the doctor was culpable because he administered the propofol outside of a hospital setting...


It is also known as "milk of amnesia".

Quote:
It has been reported that the euphoria caused by propofol is unlike that caused by other sedation agents, "I even remember my first experience using propofol: a young woman who was emerging from a MAC anesthesia looked at me as though I were a masked Brad Pitt and told me that she felt simply wonderful." —C.F. Ward, M.D.

Propofol has reportedly induced priapism in some individuals.


From that one might see why MJ put Dr. Murray under pressure to provide this drug. Perhaps the dreams under its euphoric effects allowed MJ access to images from which he created his videos and shows. That's how shamans are inducted into The United Confederation of Shamans. (A not for profit organisation--oh yeah!)

That's how a lot of creative artists have worked. Pie-eyed.

I saw a film once of a guy who was to step into the position vacated by an elder shaman who had passed away, or on, as I suppose shamans would argue, and after two others blew some powder refined from a ton of bushes of some genus which I presume is suitable for the purpose in hand, to blow his mind, up his nose out of two long tubes at the same moment. He sat on his haunches for a week without moving a muscle. When he came round they led him to a hut where some virgins were waiting, they said they were virgins anyway, and when he emerged he was a fully-fledged shaman. It was in S. America or Borneo. I don't think it was a studio mock-up. It looked authentic but you never know these days. But they were shite shamen. Nobody there had ever had a wash or consulted the Book of Etiquette.

So there exists a professional reason for MJ to use this drug. And the prosecution was based on the professional reasons of the medical profession being superior to the professional reasons of shamen. Having precedence. The problem is that MJ's professional reason might have been to continue making money for the USA by selling his stuff abroad and the professional reasons of the medical profession, the legal profession and the media parasites would never have even considered such a motive. It being "art".

There's no point discussing the priapism function of the substance as even 5 year-olds would understand that after having sex lessons.

In either case Dr Murray was in a very difficult position. He must have known that if he resigned from his position MJ would get somebody in to do the same thing and he might have felt that it was safer for him to continue because he knew the patient a lot better than a new starter would do.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 08:49 am
At some future time, a doctors responsibility may be the bidding of the patient, but we aren't there yet. At that time, assisted suicide will become the norm.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 08:53 am
@spendius,
It seems right andf wrong is terribly blurred in this world.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 09:04 am
@wayne,
I don't think you can make a general case out of someone as unusual as MJ. Many countries allow their artists some dispensations. Maybe not so much in the Ireland of James Joyce.

I don't think it is logical to draw such a conclusion from this special case. To do so it is necessary to reject the notion that artists are special cases. A state containing Hollywood is in an odd position if it does so.

Even Popes granted great leeway to artists. Unless they went OTT I mean. Rabelais walked the razor's edge Dylan says beauty walks upon. And a number of others.
 

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