Dr. Conrad Murray Found Guilty

I can understand the lying, if such it was, in the muck-sweat panic Dr Murray must have been in at the King of Pop dying on his hands. His brain must have been seriously scrambled to the point of temporary insanity. Not to make due allowance for that is inhuman.

How do you explain the statements of Larry King and Quincey Jones? Neither had any need to comment on the case or to take the line they did. Both could easily have taken the safe option. I think that both those men would understand my approach. Neither owe their position in American life to nepotism. Can any of the counsel in the court claim that?

I wouldn't argue that Dr Murray was something of a sleaze. Isn't everything in the US a bit sleazy. 50% divorce, 50,000,000 abortions sine RW, robber banks, WMDs in Iraq, war profiteering, etc etc. Many A2Kers give me the impression that the US is sleaze personified. Becoming whiter than white when a juicy victim is caught on the filaments of the web is not the way I carry on.

I don't defend the wrongs of others Arella. I try to see them in context and with a degree of understanding. The language used by the other side seems Calvinistic to me. Vulgar actually. Not the sort of thing I stand next to in the pub.

Thats why you cannot fathom our legal system. A case in court is required, by law, to stick to the point of the case. ANything thats opened for discussion is immediately shut down by opposing counsel, or most cases , the judge who wants to get home by the holidays.
When some attorney thinks he can make some silly point by waxing eloquent, he will soon learn how to eat his own glibbity.

You werent in court, you have no information except that which was provided by similar folks who also had no detailed knowledge. (I sure dont get my legal opinions from Quincy Jones).
The court has its rules of evidence and the burden of proof was on the Prosecution. Apparently, they stood up to the charge and this felon was convicted.

I have no problems with this decision and I am probably waay closer to the facts than you who get your knowledge from LArry King and Quincy Jones.
Can you distinguish the difference between our system of juris prudence and ENtertainment on CNN?

Apparently not.

Farmerman I do not think off hand that the UK legal system concerning manslaughter is all that dissimilar to the US one given that most of our legal code and system evolved from English system.

I don't think Dr Murray would have been charged here. We respect doctors more than we do lawyers who rate in popularity polls with journalists at the bottom of the scale.

I don't get my legal opinions or knowledge from Mr Jones or Mr King. If you followed the thread more closely you would know why they were mentioned by me. But you don't and there's nothing I can do about that.

And I am not making a "silly point". An assertion that there is a silly point is grossly insufficient for an intelligent person to arrive at a conclusion because if it is a silly point it justifies the judge's position.

I don't even watch CNN. I see CBS News and part of Fox News almost every night. I fully understand that they are entertainment.

Your post proves nothing. It says nothing. It's pointless.

I think your system of jurisprudence is going to eat you all up.

LOL It would seems that the good doctor would had been no better off under UK laws.


http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#medical

Medical Manslaughter
Medical manslaughter is legally no different from Gross Negligence manslaughter. The term refers to medically qualified individuals who are performing acts within the terms of their duty of care, when the act or omission occurs.

Where a medical individual is appointed to take charge of a person they then take on a duty of care towards them. Simply being a doctor or nurse in a hospital will not necessarily mean there is a duty of care to a specific patient (see section 7 HSWA [ADD LINK] in the legal guidance Corporate Manslaughter).

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Indianorigin-doctor-convicted-of-manslaughter-in-UK/420511/

London An Indian-origin doctor, who injected a patient with a drug against the advice of senior medical staff causing her death, has been convicted of manslaughter and given a six-month suspended jail sentence in London.
Priya Ramnath, 60, who worked in Britain's National Health Service, injected Patricia Leighton, an intensive care patient with adrenaline against the advice of three colleagues in the Stafford District General Hospital in July 1998.

Ramnath, who now lives in the US, was convicted of the patient's murder and handed the suspended jail sentence at the Birmingham Brown Court for going against the wishes of three colleagues and failing to speak to a consultant anaesthetist at the hospital before injecting the drug into Leighton.

The doctor came back from the US in Feb, 2008 to face the charge after being threatened with extradition. The jury found her guilty by a 10-2 majority while Ramnath denied manslaughter by gross negligence.

Leighton died from heart failure shortly after she was injected with the drug. The prosecuting lawyer, Michael Burrows, told the trial that she was being treated in an intensive therapy unit in the early hours of the morning.

He said that within moments of the injection Leighton jerked forward in her bed and exclaimed: "What's happening to me? I am going to die." She lost consciousness shortly afterwards.


Members of Leighton's family were present in court throughout the trial, including her daughters Debbie Leighton-Newton and Nicky Fellows.

Justice Rafferty ruled that the interest of justice did not require her to take away Ramnath's liberty. She said Ramnath, who has two children and lives in the US, panicked in the ‘pressure cooker’ of the hospital's intensive therapy unit.

She added that Ramnath's defining error was that she had chosen not to listen to a senior nurse working alongside her.

"Arrogance has cost you your reputation," the judge said.

Speaking after the hearing, Detective Chief Inspector Phil Bladen, of the Staffordshire police, described the inquiry as complicated and highly unusual.

"This was an extreme case whereby a doctor refused to acknowledge and act on advice given by other senior medical staff that caused someone's unnecessary death," he said.

No one disputes that Michael Jackson was an accident waiting to happen, but so was Conrad Murray because his life was also out of control. The man has 7 children, by 5 different women, he was constantly being hauled into court for non payment of child support, he was $800,00 in debt, he liked to live considerably beyond his means, at the time he hooked up with Jackson, he was married, but living with someone else (with whom he also had a child), and dangling at least two other women on the side. Come on, spendi, this man was a sleaze more than most.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058763/Conrad-Murray-guilty-verdict-Michael-Jacksons-doctors-secret-double-life.html

Jackson got himself into an over-extended tour commitment to try to get himself out of his $400 million in debt, mainly due to his excessive spending habits, and Murray got himsef into an over-his-head job with Jackson to get himself out of his $800,000 in debt, also due to his excessive spending habits. Jackson's addiction was drugs, Murray's addiction was women. These two had a lot in common. Jackson knew how people manipulated him to get what they wanted, which is why he knew how to manipulate Murray to get what he wanted.

Except Murray had been hired to provide medical services, so legally the obligation was on Murray to maintain a standard of care that did not needlessly jeopardize his patient's welfare and life, and he failed to do that.When it came to a choice between protecting his patient's life, by refusing to administer a drug that was potentially lethal when administered under such conditions, or protecting his $150,000 a month, by giving him that drug, he opted in favor of the money and killed his patient with his gross negligence and greed.

Jackson was responsible for digging up this quack and insisting that AEG hire him, but Murray was responsible for killing someone. Greed motivated Jackson, AEG, and Murray. But only one of them significantly contributed to the needless death of another human being, and he was just convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Katherine Jackson is going after AEG for wrongful death in her civil suit, and maybe she'll get a verdict against them too, although that would be a stretch. MJ had drug problems, and loads of other problems, long before this tour proposal with AEG came along. Apart from paying off his debts, the 50 performance tour would have helped him to redeem his image as an entertainer without the ugly stain that remained from the child molestation charges. But there was no way he probably could have managed to complete that tour because his 50 year old body was so dependent on and infused with drugs. But MJ thought the solution was to use more drugs, like, Propofol, to help combat the insomnia that was likely a withdrawal effect from all those drugs he was taking.

MJ was an addict. He looked to drugs to correct problems, and more drugs to correct the side effects of other drugs, and sure, other doctors enabled this. But none of those other doctors did anything as damn stupid and reckless as Murray did by fooling around with a potentially extremely legal drug, when administered by a physician under inappropriate conditions, without adequate safeguards, or monitoring, or resuscitation equipment--the mind boggles at just how reckless this man was with Jackson's life, given the cautions that should accompany use of this drug, particuarly when given in combination with all the benzodiazepines he knew Jackson was taking. The addict may have been too drug addled to fully appreciate the risk. The doctor had a legal obligation to know it, and not to take it.

There is no shared blame here. Murray killed Jackson. And while MJ was alone in his bedroom dying from the drugs Murray poured into him, Murray was elsewhere, on his cell phone, talking to his 3 girlfriends, checking his e-mails, and sending text messages. And that's what his trial was about--that was all it should have been about. How Conrad Murray's reckless negligence caused Jackson's needless death.

He deserved to be convicted. He alone was there. He did the deed.

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100621-28001.html

Sons confront doctor over UK man's death
Published: 21 Jun 10 15:38 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100621-28001.html

Share The sons of a British man killed by an overdose administered by a German locum doctor in 2008 have been taken into police custody after confronting him at a medical conference, media reports said on Monday.


Rory and Stuart Gray challenged Dr. Daniel Ubani at the cosmetic surgery conference in Lindau, Germany on Saturday, demanding to know why he was still allowed to practice medicine in his home country, British daily the Guardian reported.

Police are now investigating the brothers for causing “a disturbance” at the conference.

The incident occurred on the same day the Ubani was struck from the British medical register over the death of their 70-year-old father David Gray in Manea, Cambridgeshire, the paper said.

Ubani injected Gray with 100 milligrammes of diamorphine - 10 times the recommended daily dose – while working on his first out-of-hours shift as an overseas locum doctor in Britain. Locums are typically used to provide care when a regular family doctor is unavailable, for example at night or on the weekend.

British prosecutors had planned to bring Ubani to trial for possible manslaughter charges on a European arrest warrant, but German authorities in Bochum instead convicted him of death by negligence, the paper said. He was handed a nine-month suspended sentence and required to pay €5,000 in court fees without ever appearing in court. But Rory Gray, a satellite engineer for the European Space Agency who lives in Germany, and his brother Stuart, a doctor in West Midlands, purchased tickets to the Third International Congress of Aesthetic Surgery and Cosmetic Dental Medicine for a presentation by Ubani, the Guardian reported.

With flyers detailing the coroner’s assessment of Ubani’s “incompetent” treatment of their father, they confronted the doctor in front of the crowd, a journalist present at the event told the paper.

"I don't think this is necessary," Ubani responded, according to the paper. "We did not come here for this. This case was handled in Germany."

German police confirmed there had been an incident, but said the two brothers had not been arrested, though they were held until bail was posted.

"The organiser of the conference is pressing charges for disturbing the peace,” a police statement said. “Security was increased following the incident. The men were held until their identities could be established, and they were ordered to pay costs there and then because they are not resident in the UK.”

Kempten district prosecutors may press charges, police added.

I know all that ff. Why do you keep repeating it. It's the "Party line" and it's the Party line I am taking issue with. Lawyers getting between doctor and patient and if not resisted will result in every medical procedure being invigilated by the legal profession. The serious miens displayed during the trial don't kid me. I've seen dozens of American actors in movies involving trials all doing the serious mien pose. And since TV came in everybody has learned to act any part at any time it is convenient. None of them give a damn about MJ or Dr Murray or Propofol or any other thing than looking good and raking it in. It's NFL in frocks.

I have sufficient experience of these guys, I have socialised with them. Talk to a scientist if you want integrity. But they only mess with stuff so integrity comes easy. fm thinks that his scientific integrity is pure and unsullied by any personal considerations and it probably is up to the limit of his knowledge about stuff. But people are another matter. He thinks the one carries over to the other. He ends up thinking, like you are doing, that we are stuff. And I can make a good scientific case that we are just stuff.

I know about city legal and medical establishments. Not enough mind you but I'm getting there thanks to things like this. Had MJ, or AEG, chosen a doctor doyen from the LA medical establishment, an organism of fiendish complexity, it would have been an under the carpet job with the production of serious miens on the front of a different set of noggins. I learned long ago to not watch the focus of the action on a movie screen. To view the peripheral scene. The two uniformed officers in full regalia sitting all through the tedious evidence on time and a half getting fatter and fatter and frightened of picking their noses in case a camera was on them and the cut was all over the internet for laughs: for example. The judge trying to pretend it wasn't a stitch up. The witnesses having their moments in the sun.

I think Dr Murray made a mistake in not choosing a lawyer doyen of the LA legal establishment. One who plays golf with judge for preference or who is married to his daughter. Or some such interface, of which there are many, where human intelligence energy exchanges take place between particles of stuff.

A resounding and clear message was sent out along the lines of those adverts that begin "Have you had an accident at work recently ..... blah blah..... call (gives number) ...it could be the most important you make this year." And to doctors as well. Which might make their hands shake at crucial moments. And I admit it sounds the right message from a patient's point of view, or that of their loved ones in the case of a deceased patient.

But how far does it go in a society which places such an emphasis on business principles that everybody is imbued with them by the age of ten. Lawyers watched the trial with their saliva glands on overtime but held back from the trough. Businessmen lawyers. Businessmen watch each others activities with care and attention.

I'm fighting for freedom from cliques, claques, clocks and clunkers and I just loved the manner in which Larry King said what he said. That looked real. That's exactly how I feel.

I don't know what to do about it though like Pol Pot did. I'm humane.

Laugh at it Rabelais advised and that was the best health advice in the history of mankind as long as the laughing is genuine. And a bunch of folks posturing and preening over MJ's demise who probably voted for the war in Iraq is pretty damn funny. It might be thought racist by some philosophers.

Apparently he just liked to inject things..people...hypodermic or otherwise.

My theory is this: if Michael Jackson had pretty breasts, he'd still be alive.

It's a scintilla in a long war of attrition that has been going on for hundreds of years between the city bourgois and the hinterland which feeds it. So in essence it is temperamental. We hinterlanders don't trust the city bourgeois. You're too clever for us. You hold all the aces. You attract the clever and the cunning. And, like all organism colonies, favourable circumstances breed expansion and you just expanded some more.

That's why you had no interest in the devastation of Oklahoma by the mines. You have the dividends trousered you see.

I'm into social tectonics.

Not my point. I stated clearly that spendius had difficulty distinguishing our system of juris prudence from entertainment.

One only needs to glance at the portraits of Valentine Greatrakes, Frederick Anthony Mesmer, Phineas Parkhurst Quimby and Mary Baker Patterson Glover Eddy to see how easy a serious mien is to do.

Wow! Can you make any sense of those bleatings? Gunga Din, you're a better (farmer)man than I.

All this stuff should also be irrelevant to the case except that it establishes some valid point (which it really does not). Murray was found guilty all on the facts of the case. Thats what spendi doesnt understand.

Not taking anything from Farmerman at a guess some women are better men then you are my not so manly man.

I suspect many of us do actually. In fact it might be argued that the present system of jurisprudence is the result of imitating what was entertainment. That judges in movies set the pattern for judges in real life to follow. Life imitating art. No art and life just evolves. No religion no art. No wonder you are fascinated with the missing link.

I wasn't referring to you, you jackass. Hyper-sensitive much?

Yes of course spendius and from the news stories the UK deal with such doctors as Dr. Conrad in a similar manner even if the level of punishment seems lighter.