47
   

Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

 
 
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Oct, 2011 10:40 pm
From the OWS.org forum.

Disorganization & Demands -7

Posted Oct. 6, 2011, 12:25 a.m. EST (9 minutes ago) by MichaelFerrer

PLEASE REPOST.

In the interest of teaching by example, I'm going to repost this every two hours until at least the concerns about forum organization are addressed. If you agree, please do the same; just modify the title with a new number. If 'we' can't get the organizers of the Occupation and the moderators of this site to respond to specific, legitimate concerns, how should we expect the government or financial power brokers to respond to a general expression of dissatisfaction? So, to begin with, and echoing many other posts, what this forum needs is:

BETTER ORGANIZATION - collapsible threads & sub-forums

BETTER MODERATION - get rid of the conspiracy theories and off-topic rants

Again, if you agree, REPOST until these concerns are addressed; just maintain the original title. If we have to create a wall of the same post to disable the utility of this site until the concerns are addressed, perhaps that could serve as a lesson about how to get things done.

Below is my original (re)post, with the two threads it is a response to posted first:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-disorganized-forum-reflects-a-disorganized-movem/

This is in response to (at least) two threads below. First, I'd like to wholly second the sentiments of 'A Disorganized Forum Reflects a Disorganized Movement.' There is no excuse, however generically postmodern or strainingly anti-authoritarian, for how poorly arranged this section of the site is, given its significance. Threads should be collapsible and sub-divided, topics should be organized into smaller sub-forums, off-topic threads, unfiltered rants and flame wars should be deleted.

Second, and as an illustration of the above, I didn't want my response to the highly damaging farce of the "Proposed List of Demands...!" post to languish at the bottom of 500 largely shouty, uncollapsed comments, so I'm reposting it here. Just as my above comments are also supportive of one dominant theme of the threads below, these are supportive of another. Both require what the public at large keeps asking for: some sort of definitive action/statements from the organizers (besides the 'standard gripes' statement the GA recently released). So, here goes:

Do a search for 'Occupy Wall Street demands,' and this ["Proposed List of Demands"] is the first substantive thing that comes up. It's easy enough to overlook that it's being made in a forum setting and take it for an "official statement" representing the 'movement', and to then dismiss the 'movement' as a whole on the back of that; and this is, of course, how right wing commentators (and many people not at all aligned with the right) are treating it, if only disingenuously.

If the organizers came up with a list of demands, rather than just the complaints listed in their recent statement, this would not have to suffice as the top result available to the public It is weakening, and will continue to weaken, the credibility of the 'movement' (which is not yet a movement, just the suggestion of one) that it hasn't presented any progressive strategy or list of specific, actionable demands. Meanwhile the failure to simply moderate comments like this one [Proposed List of Demands] with any sort of readily apparent disclaimer, the general indie-left ethic of uncritical and directionless inclusivity, reflect a broader unseriousness to how the Occupation is presenting its message. The festival vibe threatens to eclipse any substantive position on the part of the movement it presumably represents. It looks, in short, amateurish.

You've got the attention of the world. Don't just stand up there and dance and chant, march cheerfully back and forth around the city, pat each other on the back at General Assembly, slap a "REVOLUTION" sticker on the whole package and then balk and lay blame when the unconverted don't buy it. Don't blow this. The effect that that single post has had on your ability to be taken seriously should be an embarrassment and a wake-up call. Tighten up. Or else it's not just going to be the right-wing commentariat concluding that this kind of tinfoil hat flakery is the best you can come up with.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 02:10 am
@hawkeye10,
I'm not struggling to understand the Tea Party, nor have I.

I also have understood for a long time that people have shared grievances that transcend the left-right, D-R, liberal-conservative dichotomy.

We agree that apathy is the problem. People need a place to participate actively in their society.

To make a metaphor: Why run if you aren't going to race? Because sometimes you need to stretch your legs, or perhaps you've let yourself get fat and lazy. Just start running, and later you can decide if you wanna race. Either way you're better off running. Other people count on you staying seated and just watching. That's how they win the race--Convincing you to stay comfortable.

A
R
T
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 02:17 am
@failures art,
Quote:
That's how they win the race--Convincing you to stay comfortable.
Alternated with trying to make you fear rocking the boat. Read up on the manipulation technigues pimps use to keep their bitches in line, then imagine the corporate class as the pimp and the American citizen as the bitch...

Have fun trying to sleep after the exercise though...
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 03:07 am
I've never really liked the classification of rightists and leftists or conservative or liberal. I hate when I get asked what I am, because they basically size me up and say, you are over here, when in reality, I do have both some conservative views and also some liberal views. I am not solidly either one, yet they say, "Well you are mostly this so you go over there in that group." No I am not grouped because the majority of my views just so happen to coincide with them. I want to be what I am which is neither really but at the same time I understand the need for people to classify others so they have some means of relating to them. I just can't stand the mud slinging from both sides, liberals this or conservatories are that.

It's really just childish attempts to strong arm their position and nothing more than tribalism. Everyone wants to belong to the "right" tribe and anyone who isn't in the "right" tribe deserves to be slaughtered by the "right" tribe.

Some people go along with others points of views even if they don't agree with them simply because they can not admit that their "opposing" group has some reasonable points. They will just out the group entirely without even considering their points. They will just go right back to the mud slinging.

At some points I just want nothing to do with the whole thing but I can't, I am forced to play the game and make a choice other wise I get crap for not participating. In some cases being indifferent or unsympathetic makes you part of the problem. By inaction you actually indirectly support the injustice in the world. By not saying anything you indirectly allow the situation to continue. But when you do speak up, you get branded unpatriotic or insubordinate or a supporter of terrorism. To have any sort of negative comments towards the government is essentially not allowed and thus a criminal act. To be critical of how politics is practiced is off limits unless you want to be hounded by those who can make your life miserable for having an opinion.

You get investigated or put on a watch list for having opposing ideas that are not supported by the government. They deem it necessary to silence you and label you a criminal by speaking your mind. It does not matter if you have harmed anyone or not actually committed any crimes. The fact that you don't support them makes you wrong.

Is it worth losing the one thing that you can't get back because you object to the current status and condition of current politics? On some days I'm not so sure, so does that make me a coward? Perhaps but I also respect those who are willing to put that wager to the test. If I am not worthy I only ask, what is it that I have gotten to be thankful for that I should have already had to begin with? Why must I fight or risk so much for something that shouldn't need to be struggled for?

I don't feel free in the country that recites freedom as it's mantra. I am not free to do as I like even when it harms no one but perhaps myself. Where are these freedoms that keep being vaguely mentioned? I am free to chose the type of car I want to drive, the meal on a menu and the color of my genes but the things that really count I am not allowed to decide for myself. Instead someone else gets to dictate to me what I must do and how I must behave when these things harm no one other than perhaps myself.

While the elite have little the worry about they neglect to notice that the less well off get more problems to face. They make their decisions not caring what happens to the rest of society because all that is important to them is what they want. Those who use religion for their means to persuade law makers to enforce their idea of morality do not notice that their efforts don't make the world better but instead only make things worse.

I think we are at a moment when we need to decide what needs fixing and what things are not working and what ways to solve them so everyone benefits and not just a select few.
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 04:17 am
http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/cartoon-images/2011/10/cartoon111005/10796107-1-eng-US/cartoon111005_full_600x400.jpg
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Cartoons
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 04:26 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
I think we are at a moment when we need to decide what needs fixing and what things are not working and what ways to solve them so everyone benefits and not just a select few.
No, far too much is broken for that to work....what we need to do is figure out what we need to get working right so that we can fix all the rest. We have to get the political system functional again, get Washington functioning again, and then from there work of fixing the rest of the nation.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 04:47 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I think we are at a moment when we need to decide what needs fixing and what things are not working and what ways to solve them so everyone benefits and not just a select few.
No, far too much is broken for that to work....what we need to do is figure out what we need to get working right so that we can fix all the rest. We have to get the political system functional again, get Washington functioning again, and then from there work of fixing the rest of the nation.


But if the leaders are corrupt and benefit with the current system that favors them, they won't be inclined to make any changes. Why fix something if it's not broken from their perspective?
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 04:51 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
But if the leaders are corrupt and benefit with the current system that favors them, they won't be inclined to make any changes. Why fix something if it's not broken from their perspective?
America belongs to all Americans, not just those sitting in chairs in the capital, White HOuse and SCOTUS.

America needs a little revolution now and then, and now is one of those times.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 04:57 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
But if the leaders are corrupt and benefit with the current system that favors them, they won't be inclined to make any changes. Why fix something if it's not broken from their perspective?
America belongs to all Americans, not just those sitting in chairs in the capital, White HOuse and SCOTUS.


I agree with you, that originally the government was based on that ideal. However; it has been far from that ideal in a very long time, longer than I have been alive. This is not something new but the current leaders have done a really good job of demonizing objectors and making the problems seem far less than what they really are. The media has failed to do it's job and we americans as a whole are not unhappy enough yet to do anything about changing the system. Not until things start getting turned off like foot ball games and nascar events. Not until you have to pay ten dollars a gallon for gas (probably not even that would do it.) Not until every dollar that you work for is dictated by the government on how you should spend it.

hawkeye10 wrote:

America needs a little revolution now and then, and now is one of those times.


I agree but there is a huge price to pay for enacting that and I don't mean financially.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 05:34 am
this is one of those times i'd like to see both sides of the line beaten with rubber hoses

i think the bankers are scumbags, but hey, someone (the government) offered them money with no questions and no oversights and they took it, something i believe the protesters would do if offered (actually it sounds a lot like there "living Wage" regardless of employment status that i saw quoted earlier)

i think the protesters are misguided, i think the real problem is government

go occupy Washington
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 05:43 am
hawkeye wrote:
You are finally beginning to understand what the Tea Party is all about,


This is a value I see, and why I'm not anti-protestors. The simple message that the Tea Party kooks are not the only ones who are pissed off and willing to do something about it has some value. I think it's fairly limited value, is all. In and of itself.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 06:19 am
By Neal Boortz

The Libtards occupying Wall Street have come up with a proposed list of their demands. You are going to enjoy these .. are you ready?

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

Let’s let the Occupy Wall Street crowd run Haiti for a few years utilizing these demands and see how well that works out for them. Gawd help us.

We should make this column by Peter Ferrara required reading for all of the unemployables occupying Wall Street: Economic Growth, Not Income Redistribution, Is What Helps Us All.
Krumple
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 06:32 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

By Neal Boortz

The Libtards occupying Wall Street have come up with a proposed list of their demands. You are going to enjoy these .. are you ready?

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

Let’s let the Occupy Wall Street crowd run Haiti for a few years utilizing these demands and see how well that works out for them. Gawd help us.

We should make this column by Peter Ferrara required reading for all of the unemployables occupying Wall Street: Economic Growth, Not Income Redistribution, Is What Helps Us All.


Can you site a source you got this from? I really doubt this is the actual list. It sounds more like someone trying to piggy back their own ideas since the movement has not come out with their own. This list seems so petty and trivial without any regard to the consequences if they were imposed. They have nothing to do with government policy nor the functionality of wall street. I am skeptical that the list above is the actual list backed by the occupy wall street movement.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 07:01 am
From what I can gather and I haven't been following this until about two days ago, there really isn't a list of demands exactly, more of a broad message of discontent with the disparity between the top riches people in America and the rest of us.

Quote:
The odd, non-organized yet tightly self-controlled organization "didn’t vary from the message we have conveyed since the beginning — the broad sense that people are frustrated by the unfairness of economic inequality," says Tyler Combelic, one of the organizers of the group.


source

I can relate and it does have the value of getting the message out there, the tax laws are in favor of the CEOs and the very rich rather than the average joe plumber. Wages have been stagnated and companies have been making profits but not hiring here at home or at all and just sitting on their profits.



Income Gap Between Rich, Poor the Widest Ever


Obama had not been addressing this for two years, he is starting to now that it is election time. Republicans and congress would do well to listen up as well as their poll numbers are so low. When our government tells people that we have to cut into SS and Medicare but then we do nothing to raise revenue, it gets ordinary people, including tea party members many of which are senior citizens, it gets people mad. Why do we always get the shaft and have to giving subsides to oil companies and the like? It don't make any sense and I think it is that dissatisfaction which resonates with people.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 08:15 am
@Krumple,
Source: Neal Boortz
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 10:01 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:



I can relate and it does have the value of getting the message out there, the tax laws are in favor of the CEOs and the very rich rather than the average joe plumber. Wages have been stagnated and companies have been making profits but not hiring here at home or at all and just sitting on their profits.



Income Gap Between Rich, Poor the Widest Ever


Obama had not been addressing this for two years, he is starting to now that it is election time. Republicans and congress would do well to listen up as well as their poll numbers are so low. When our government tells people that we have to cut into SS and Medicare but then we do nothing to raise revenue, it gets ordinary people, including tea party members many of which are senior citizens, it gets people mad. Why do we always get the shaft and have to giving subsides to oil companies and the like? It don't make any sense and I think it is that dissatisfaction which resonates with people.
not only are companies refusing to hire but they are often still firing or asking for wage cuts to improve profits at the very same time they are giving there already massively over paid executives huge pay raises....
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 10:17 am
@Krumple,
That list of demands comes straight from the OWS website.
If you go to my previous post, you will see a link to the website.
I am at work right now, so I can't access the link.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 10:27 am


Liberal thugs

'Occupy Wall Street' Protests Turn Violent
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 10:31 am
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Since they've never managed a coherent point I think they were always at the cross roads. It's just uninformed and generalized rage at corporate "greed".

Might as well march against "bad things we don't like". IMO this is just more stupefying reductionism.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2011 11:15 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
Ghandi march to the sea was a protest against english oppression.


Their dragon was real. English colonization was a much more legitimate grievance than generalized anger at rich people on Wall St.

Quote:
Demonstration itself is a powerful thing.


I agree, but that doesn't mean it can't be used for a completely vapid and uninformed movement. Demonstration can be powerful for stupid causes too.
0 Replies
 
 

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