47
   

Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2011 05:40 pm
Quote:
October 25, 2011, 12:55 pm
Say Anything

Over the last couple of days, I’ve been getting mail accusing me of consorting with Nazis. My immediate reaction was, what the heck? Then it clicked: the right wing is mounting a full-court press to portray Occupy Wall Street as an anti-Semitic movement, based, as far as I can tell, on one guy with a sign.

At the same time, the claque is claiming that OWS is responsible for a crime wave. To believe this, you have to believe not only that a few thousand non-violent protestors are deeply straining a police force with 35,000 officers, but that all the rapists and murderers in the outer boroughs are saying, “Hey, the police are busy chasing hippies! Let’s party!” Oh, well.

My first thought was that OWS must have the right really rattled. And there’s probably something to that. But actually, this is the way the right goes after everyone who stands in their way: accuse them of everything, no matter how implausible or contradictory the accusations are. Progressives are atheistic socialists who want to impose Sharia law. Class warfare is evil; also, John Kerry is too rich. And so on.

The key to understanding this, I’d suggest, is that movement conservatism has become a closed, inward-looking universe in which you get points not by sounding reasonable to uncommitted outsiders — although there are a few designated pundits who play that role professionally — but by outdoing your fellow movement members in zeal.

It’s sort of reminiscent of Stalinists going after Trotskyites in the old days: the Trotskyites were left deviationists, and also saboteurs working for the Nazis. Didn’t propagandists feel silly saying all that? Not at all: in their universe, extremism in defense of the larger truth was no vice, and you literally couldn’t go too far.

Many members of the commentariat don’t want to face up to the fact that this is what American politics has become; they cling to the notion that there are gentlemanly elder statesmen on the right who would come to the fore if only Obama said the right words. But the fact is that nobody on that side of the political spectrum wants to or can make deals with the Islamic atheist anti-military warmonger in the White House.

Strap yourself in; this is not going to be fun.


http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/25/say-anything/

Cycloptichorn
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2011 06:40 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Oh, did the US Office of Drug Sales release their statistics for this month already?
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2011 07:53 pm
The network of global corporate control
Stefania Vitali, James B. Glattfelder, and Stefano Battiston

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1107/1107.5728v2.pdf

Abstract
The structure of the control network of transnational corporations affects global market competition and financial stability. So far, only small national samples were studied and there was no appropriate methodology to assess control globally. We present the first investigation of the architecture of the international ownership network, along with the computation of the control
held by each global player. We find that transnational corporations form a giant bow-tie structure and that a large portion of control flows to a small tightly-knit core of financial institutions. This core can be seen as an economic “super-entity” that raises new important issues both for researchers and policy makers.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Oct, 2011 08:57 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Sounds like a perfect analogy of what's happening in today's politics between the GOP and the pres.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 05:14 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

parados wrote:

Meanwhile

Occupy Maine camp attacked with chemical bomb

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article/177145/314/Occupy-Maine-attacked-with-chemical-bomb


Didn't that used to be called a "stink bomb?"

I think stink bombs are lit and make a smelly smoke, they don't explode. From the description, it sounds more like a dry-ice bomb, but those don't stink. Perhaps you could put things inside to make it stink.

I'm not an expert on bombs. My two cents.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 05:23 am
@Cycloptichorn,
EDIT: From your article, "commentariat" is probably the best word I've heard in ages.

I've been hearing the antisemitic smear as well. Strange I thought it that serveral jewish people I know celebrated Yom Kippur at #OccupyDC.

DCist wrote:
Occupy Yom Kippur

In previous years, we've highlighted interesting places for those observing Yom Kippur to get their pre-fast meal (2008) and where to find services that don't require tickets (2009). Yom Kippur posting took a year off for 2010; there's only so many new options for praying every year.

But, there is a new last-minute option for 2011. With the convergence of the Day of Atonement, which begins tonight, and the Occupy movement's arrival in D.C., there will be a Yom Kippur Kol Nidrei Service at Occupy DC in McPherson Square at 6 p.m. Thrown together only this morning -- though you would barely be able to tell by the extensive notes outlined on the Facebook event page -- over 50 people are signed up to ask God for forgiveness in the square.

The narrative ties the liturgical asking of forgiveness with the active ethos of the protest. "Thus rather than spending the holiday safe and warm in our cozy synagogues thinking abstractly about human suffering," suggests the call to prayer, "perhaps we should truly afflict ourselves and undertake the fast of Isaiah, by joining the demonstrators in McPherson Square (15th and K NW), and holding our Yom Kippur services there amongst the oppressed, hungry, poor and naked." The page asks participants to bring their own prayer books, suggests ways for telling passers by they don't wish to be photographed while praying, and warns of the unlikely possibility of arrest.
There's no official pre-fast meal though. So, in the spirit of DCist's past Yom Kippur coverage, allow me to pass on some recommendations on where to feast before the fast. A pizza and pasta carboload at Potenza Bakery? Or perhaps an order of Pad Thai (hold the shrimp) at Bangkok One? Gmar chatima tova!


source

Many cities did this.

Anti-crony not antisemitic
R
T
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 08:26 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

My whole problem with the OWS people is the fact that they don't seem to be concerned about who they are hurting.
I have seen and heard reports that some of the smaller businesses around the park are having to close, because customers are staying away. How does that help?

Also, do these people plan to occupy public Parks all winter? It gets real cold in the winter in some of these places.

And what about anyone else that wants to use the Parks? Are they allowed to?


If your little finger was badly infected, would you have it amputated to save your life, even if it hurt??? The pain across this country is general... The economy is destroying the nation and the sense of nationhood that has supported it and made it possible... Even if you grant that the new world may never have been discovered and the United States would never have been formed without capitalism growing in the world, still there is a point where the existence of capitalism comes into conflict with all human freedom and happiness... Capitalism has to die for this people to live... We are being sold cheap, and our defenses are being dropped, and we are being reduced to the level of any third world country is our means and expectations, and if we do not destroy capitalism, it will destroy us... It is just a damned form of economy... We don't need it... It needs us..
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 08:30 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

But I keep getting told that the OWSters are not out to tear the whole damned thing down, and that perceiving that they are is sign of being a dupe for capitalists.

What the hell is OWS all about?

Is it an expression of righteous anger by mainstream America that the conservative media is desperate to portray as being under the control of a bunch of Che wannabes, or is it the revolution finally come round, the time to tear down the whole rotten structure and build something new?

Apparently it’s against the rules of the revolution to tell anyone

Fido, you're a master of pseudo-revolutionary rhetoric, and so I'm not surprised that your recommendation is for more gibberish.

They are clearly about democracy... They are not organizing or playing politics with agenda's and elections... They are simply a bunch of people who recognize that they are being harmed by the economy which should support us all, and that we are reduced to supporting directly with the government which will then expect to collect it from us.. The well is dry, and not all the salt in the ocean will make it run fresh water again...
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 08:35 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

parados wrote:

Meanwhile

Occupy Maine camp attacked with chemical bomb

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article/177145/314/Occupy-Maine-attacked-with-chemical-bomb


Didn't that used to be called a "stink bomb?"

Nope.. It's called a BOMB. It has the ability to kill people or seriously injure them.

http://www.newstribune.com/news/2011/jun/29/prosecutor-warns-against-homemade-drano-bombs/
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 08:36 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:


What the hell is OWS all about?


It's about banks not being held responsible for their role in wrecking our economy, and the financial structure that pushes these executives to take ever-increasing amounts of risk - no matter what the cost to the rest of us.

Pretty much every 'demand' that you hear anyone make there is a facet of this overall problem.

Cycloptichorn
Any one who thinks the problem is only with the banks is sadly wrong... The government is tied to the economy, which is capitalist, and so are their churches which view any call for justice from any other quarter as a threat... They cannot bring about a just society with prayer, and they sabotage anyone else who tries, and though social justice should be the job of government, the government in bed with capital does not even pretend that is an option... The whole mess together needs a push into the hole it has dug for itself... The people do not need these clown and these forms... These forms need the people, and every show of discontent, even from the tea assholes is a challenge to the establishment, and a threat, and is encouragement to revolution...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 08:46 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I'm far more interested in discovering whether or not you think the demands of OWS are, in fact, smart ones.

Cycloptichorn
The democratic people's OWS movement in Lansing took nearly forty five minutes of participatory democracy to decide where to set up a kitchen tent... MY guess is that these folks can't hardly find their butts with either hand... The demands of such peple do not have to be intelligent or coherent... It is enough that they get off their asses in an effor to make a point that many of us are willing to agree with, that the economy is not working- because those who most obviously benefit from it are killing it by taking too much at once out of it... Figure it out: An economy has to support a whole people, and done right, it can; but if those with the power to do so take everything and leave everyone else struggling, then they are criminals... The word economy means house(hold) management... Where is the management in this house??? There is only madness here...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 09:07 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:


What the hell is OWS all about?


It's about banks not being held responsible for their role in wrecking our economy, and the financial structure that pushes these executives to take ever-increasing amounts of risk - no matter what the cost to the rest of us.

Pretty much every 'demand' that you hear anyone make there is a facet of this overall problem.

Cycloptichorn
The risk was only the result of the desire for profit and it is profit which sucks the life out of the economy... The line appears in Das Capital that High profits are synonymous with glut, meaning depression, because an economy needs consumers as well as producers, and unless the people have money they cannot be consumers...Our money has been going to the third world where the banks have been risking capital in order to produce abroad for our consumption here... It is the same way Spain and Rome were empoverished... A healthy economy needs consumers, and when this people is mired in debt, and the government is mired in debt, then there is no consumption other than hand to mouth, and what it takes to keep us alive does not create much profit or wages... We have been bled for far too long... How do we become unbled short of killing of the parasites???
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 09:15 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

OK - maybe we're getting somewhere.

What does the OWSters want to happen as a result of these demonstrations?

What needs to happen before they will believe Wall Street was properly held responsible?
Wall street is just a symbol... If they happen to find the enemy the will find it is us... We have all bought into the system in some fashion or another, and no matter what is promised, if Wall Street goes, most people will hurt a long time before thing get sorted out in their favor...Part of the problem is how interlocked all the facets of this society's economy, and the world economy are... We may be seeing the beginning of WWIII, because capitalism the world over is supported by credit, and because no one can afford to support themselves on wages alone... Credit is just life support for capitalism... The government should have let the banks die, because it could have been our bank... Instead, they borrow from the rich to support the rich and expect to collect it from the poor who are themselves living on credit.... It is madness... Total insanity, but it will have to fall on its own because no one has the courage to kill it, and then face the backlash from a population fearful of the future without exploitation...
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 09:27 am
Yaknow, Fido, it's not that I disagree with what ya say; but, I can't really catch the real meaning of your posts, because you refuse to use proper sentence structure and paragraph formatting.

Cycloptichorn
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 09:29 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I disagree, Cyclo.

Fido is hitting so many nails right on the head, I'm gonna nominate Fido for carpenter of the year for sure.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 09:31 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

I disagree, Cyclo.

Fido is hitting so many nails right on the head, I'm gonna nominate Fido for carpenter of the year for sure.


It's just a suggestion, not a criticism of the overall thrust of what he's writing.

I would also be more interested in seeing actual policy proposals, than nebulous discussions of the rot in our society, which are interesting but ultimately unenlightening.

Cycloptichorn
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 10:01 am
Meanwhile, in Zuccotti Park...

Because nothing says "Take Me Seriously" like dressing up in a funny costume and confronting a banker!

Or, as one commenter put it, "What's next? Toilet-papering their houses?"

Twinkles down!
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 10:01 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

I disagree, Cyclo.

Fido is hitting so many nails right on the head, I'm gonna nominate Fido for carpenter of the year for sure.
There is a big difference between beating ones meet, and pounding a nail...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 10:05 am
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Meanwhile, in Zuccotti Park...

Because nothing says "Take Me Seriously" like dressing up in a funny costume and confronting a banker!

Or, as one commenter put it, "What's next? Toilet-papering their houses?"

Twinkles down!



Ooh, I don't know if I agree with you here. There's nothing at all wrong with confronting the architects of our failed system with the reality of the effects of their decisions. Everyone ELSE has to deal with it; why should these rich assholes be protected from the consequences of their actions?

An earlier article in this thread had an investment banker crying in his champagne, saying that everyone who finds out what he does for a living 'hates him.' That's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. He should be reviled. Because the truth is that his industry does nothing productive for America any longer, and is parasitic in nature.

Social pressure is the first key to changing the structure we currently have.

Cycloptichorn
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Oct, 2011 10:07 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Builder wrote:

I disagree, Cyclo.

Fido is hitting so many nails right on the head, I'm gonna nominate Fido for carpenter of the year for sure.


It's just a suggestion, not a criticism of the overall thrust of what he's writing.

I would also be more interested in seeing actual policy proposals, than nebulous discussions of the rot in our society, which are interesting but ultimately unenlightening.

Cycloptichorn
Trying to draw up the blueprints of a perfect society while under fire from all who get some good out of this society is impossible... This society serves too few and makes too many miserable to keep it... First concentrate on the destruction of the old junk because anyone building to their own collective self interest can do better than what we have...Let the survivors build their own relationship because it is the only way it will work anyway...You cannot organize a revolution... All those we think of as great revolutionaries ended revolutions that were already in progress... The hard part is getting them going... Stopping them is dangerous, but they usually play themselves out...Let them run till they slow down enough to ride...
 

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